Tyson Motsenbocker is a singer, songwriter and author of the new book, "Where the Waves Turn Back: My 40-day pilgramage along the California coast." We had a wonderful conversation about his journey, learnings, and insights. Be ready to take notes because his observations and perceptions make us think--about love, relationships, grief, and what really matters in our lives. It's a must-read for anyone, especially mothers.
In this powerful memoir, following the death of his mother, Tyson Motsenbocker retraces the journey an 18th century priest took in this harrowing story of one man’s pilgrimage of healing and finding beauty and hope in tragedy.
After years on the road performing at sold-out venues, Tyson Motsenbocker returned home to the impending death of his 57-year-old hero and mother. He begged God to heal her, but she died anyway. When they buried her body, Tyson also buried the childhood version of his faith.
Two days after they buried his mother, Tyson set out on a 600-mile pilgrimage of sorts, intending to walk from San Diego to San Francisco along the El Camino. Tyson’s journey takes him down smog-choked highways, across fog-laden beaches, past multi-million-dollar coastal estates, and along the towering cliffs of Big Sur. And as he walks, Tyson also wrestles with his faith, questioning the pat answers and easy prayers he once readily accepted, trying to understand how hope and tragedy can all be wrapped up in the same God. The people he meets along the way challenge his understanding of the meaning of security, of what it means to live a meaningful life, and of the legacies we all leave behind.
Connect with Tyson here: https://www.tysonmotsenbocker.com/
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Host, Stephanie Nelson (00:00):
I would like to welcome singer songwriter Tyson Motsenbacher to the Pivotal People Podcast. He has come out with a great book, it's a memoir called, where the Waves Turn Back, chronicling a transformative 40 Day Pilgrimage along the California coastline. It's a very compelling, poignant story. It talks about his 40 day, 600 mile trip to the math on that. That's an average of 15 miles a day, about 10 years ago. He did it in 2013 for a very special reason. So, Tyson, welcome. I'd love to hear a little bit, tell everyone a little about who you are and what really compelled you to set out on this journey.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (00:46):
Yeah, thanks so much for coming on. It's great to, great to chat with you. It started with my mother, who was a who got sick with cancer when I was in my mid early twenties. And she was a just a hero of mine in a many, many ways. When she was getting more sick, she kind of like called me aside and said that she basically told, she said that she wanted me to do something dumb and irresponsible after she was gone, which I think is funny because it's like the least motherly advice ever <laugh>. And she said, she said, yeah. Like she, she's basically said, when I, when I'm gone, I want you to do something irresponsible. And while you're doing that irresponsible thing, I want you to think about why you're sad that I'm gone <laugh>. And I asked her like what sort of irresponsible thing I should do? And she said, she was like, I don't know, you do irresponsible stuff all the time. Just pick something. <Laugh>.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (01:35):
What a great mother. No wonder you were so close.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (01:38):
Yeah, we were very close. And so the thing I ended up picking was, the backstory also is that my mom was a very adventurous person. She was like a long distance cyclist. So when she was 20, she rode her bicycle from Seattle to Boston by herself. Wow.
And then when she was a little bit older, she wrote all the way across the outback in Australia. So she she was kind of a person that was like, I, I joke in the book that my family has a higher threshold for risk than most families. So that kind of like was a, was part of the thing. I think it was just this idea of like breaking away from your routine and allowing the disruption in, in your life to kind of like enter into your, into yourself. So I, the thing that I picked was to walk, there's a old Pilgrims Road in California that's called the El Camino Real. And it was built by the Franciscan monks from Spain, specifically this guy named Father Hiro, Sarah. And he's a very complicated figure these days. There's a lot of things, you know, history is a, is a complicated matter. But he did build these missions and this beautiful road along the California coast. So I decided to just walk that. And I don't think anyone's done it in over, you know, at least a hundred years, probably a lot more than that because it's all just freeways now. So it's not a very, it's not a very nice place to walk most of the time. But it had a good story and it was doing the irresponsible thing that I needed to do. So that's, the book is about,
Host, Stephanie Nelson (03:00):
Well, what I appreciated about it, I'm a walker, okay? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, 15 miles is a super long distance. Yeah. I walk five miles, not 15 miles. But you did it 40 days in a row and you were in pain from like the first couple of days. Well, okay, if anyone's gonna attempt this by the way, get a really good pair of shoes.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (03:19):
Yeah, that's a good start. Yeah.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (03:20):
<LaughWell, to be fair, you left just three days after your mother's funeral.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (03:26):
It's true. I did. Yeah. So her, her funeral was on Saturday and then I left on Monday. So yeah, it was pretty, you weren't
Host, Stephanie Nelson (03:31):
Any of us who have lost, I always say there's a special club of people who've lost a mother. Right. You know, you can't understand it until it happens. And I know there's all kinds of different grief. Your book Chronicles really couple of things that I took lots of notes. First, what happens to us when we clear our mind of our daily clutter and start observing the world? You had 40 days of nothing but walking, number one. And number two, really understanding grief and looking at the world through your grief. And you also questioned your faith. You know, what is this all about? So the whole book, you feel like you're walking with Tyson, and we have all walked through these kinds of things before. What I appreciate is you just didn't present the problem. You really took us through your thoughts and came really to a beautiful conclusion. It's taken you a long time to write this book.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (04:26):
Yeah, it has. And, and it is, it's hard. I think it's hard to set out, to write a book like this. It, it was something that I kind of avoided for a long time because I didn't feel like I had any really very satisfactory answers from it. You know, like people, people wanna know like, well, what did you learn and what did you, how did you change? And all those things. And it really felt like, it felt like, to me, I think that a lot of it was like discovering the ways that I needed to change and discovering the answers that were still kind of like the, like basically just instead of discovering answers, it was discovering better, better questions or more answerable, answerable questions, you know? So yeah. I think it was, yeah. And that's, that's something when I, when I talk about the book, it's like, well, what are the answers? Like, there's not really very good answers to like, why did this person that you love pass away or whatever.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (05:10):
When your mother passed away mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you were in your early twenties, where were you in your life right then? Like, you obviously interrupted your life for 40 days and went off and did this. What was going on?
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (05:20):
Yeah, so I was, I'm a tour songwriter, so I'd been touring for probably like only at that point, maybe like three or three or four years at that point. But it was a very busy season of my life. Like, I was on the road sometimes like two, 300 days a year. So I was just gone on out playing, and I was playing in other people's bands and trying to kinda like, make a way for myself in the world. And I, in some ways, like, I think I was like kind of avoiding the situation at my, in my life, which is that my mom was sick and she actually even told me one time, she was like, you know, it feels like I, she told me, she's like, I know that you're avoiding this pain in your, this pain that was like me being sick, but it feels like you're avoiding me.
Which was, my mom was really good at like, kind of vocalizing the, the ways that like she needed to be seen. And those, it's, it's so like, it's so hard because, you know, like at the, at the end of the day, my mom was the one that needed to be cared for, but like all mothers, like she was, was still caring for us the whole time and helping us through it, which is just like so much to ask of someone that's going through such a difficult time. But she still did that, which is one of the things I admire about her so much. I think that towards the end of it, when I really realized like, this is real, this is a, this is a actually, like a final, a finality. Like, I always sort of thought maybe she'd just get better if I didn't think about it.
And I, it became apparent that she wasn't gonna get better. And it was this realization that like, partly that just like life is, is so fleeting and short and things are moving quickly, and we only have the people that we love for so long. And that was one of the reasons why this, this, I, I just sort of realized how important it was going to be for me to reorient my life around things that really mattered to me, like specifically people. And so that, that, yeah, that 40 days, I, I, I, I mean, you know, it wasn't hard to do because everybody knew for one thing, like we, my mom was sick, so we didn't know how long she was gonna be in those final days for, so my life was already kind of like totally on pause and I kinda just like extended that. I was just like, I'm, you know, I paused it for her for now and I'm gonna, after that I'm gonna pause it for me. So yeah, it was 40 days of like, I think everybody just kind of like left me alone. And they were like, they're like, Tyson's doing his thing, I guess. Like, you know, there's a lot going on with his mom. And I kind of just like completely ejected from my life. And it was a very good decision.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (07:37):
It's interesting. I'm sitting here thinking it's probably not that hard for any of us to really just pause our life. We all think everything we're doing is so important. It's, but you were able to pause it. Would you recommend to people that they take 40 days and pause their life and go do something, you call it irresponsible? I feel like it's super responsible. Mm-Hmm. Cause in your early twenties you got reoriented around what really mattered,
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (08:03):
Right? Yeah. I think, I mean, I, like I and I, and I, like, there's no, I have no end of like, a lot, some of the feedback on this book is just people being like, man, what an unbelievable, like, like who, who actually has the, the bandwidth in their life to do something like this? And the, the fact of the matter is that not very many people do. And I was in a very unique position, which is that I was single and I was young and I was already really poor. So it didn't, like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like I didn't have a lot of, like, my, for me to exist in the world didn't cost very much so like, it, I didn't have to pay for it really. Like, it was just like I could, I could kind of just, just leave my life and just do something else.
And it, there wasn't a lot of you know, there wasn't a lot of like, recoil for, for that. That's interesting. At, at the time it did feel like there was a lot of recoil. Like, I remember feeling like, you know, it's so funny to look back on it because it, you only have context for like the, the life you have. So like, you know, I was going, I like, I was going into debt to do that walk and, but it wasn't really very much debt at the time. It felt like a lot. So it did feel like it costs something. I think it always feels like you, like whenever you leave your life, like it feels like it costs something. But the main thing that I would say is that like, I don't think that most people, including like, I couldn't do it now.
There's no way I could just like eject for my life for over a month and, and do that now. But I do think that you can make a point to like earmark your life in ways where you leave it and look at it from a distance. And also to doing it as a tr like if you've lost someone, which was the case, for me to do it as a tribute to that person I think is really cool. Like, I have a friend who just lost his brother and his brother really liked mountain biking. And so my friend would just ride his mountain bike as hard as he could. Like one, he'd, he'd take a whole day every week for for a month. And he just did that every, every, every week for a month. And it was his tribute to his brother. And it was, I guess like, just my, the main thing that I would wanna say is that I think we just get like so zoomed in and obsessed with the minutiae of our life that we forget how, how precious time is and like how important these big things are. And just allowing ourself to have margin for these bigger points of meaning is important.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (10:14):
That is a great way to say it. And you know, this book is such a tribute to your mother. I said, I mean, this was not your intention that this would be a book that mothers would wanna read. I have sons who were the age you were when your mother died mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And oh my gosh, I would love it if my sons ever wrote anything like this. I mean, you included just some really sweet kind of funny things your mother said. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I'm always afraid of what my sons will co quote, you know? Oh my gosh, what did I say? But there were a couple of things you said in your book that anyone who's experienced grief could relate to this one. This is how you just nailed it. So much of the loss I was feeling was embodied. And the tragedy that nothing seemed to have changed for anyone else.
The world continued to spin. The people went on with their lives and the very foundation of the earth had cracked under my feet. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And isn't that how anyone who has lost someone feels, it's like you're in this weird, surreal space and everyone keeps going. And for, you know, a little while, people say, I'm sorry for your loss mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and then you're supposed to be over it. And I don't know, I mean, it took me a solid year to Yeah. Close to normal after my mother died, so mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but you were so intentional. You're like, you know what? I'm gonna put life on pause. I'm not gonna fake it. I'm not gonna go around saying, oh, I'm fine. And what I loved in this, and I think what I hear you saying is you don't have to take 40 days outta your life to experience what I'm about to describe to you mm-hmm.
<Affirmative> what Tyson experienced. But in our own lives we can. So for example, you talked about how you had nothing else you had to do. The only thing you had to do was walk 15 miles a day and as time went on right, you said maybe boredom is the test you have to pass. It's the road to enlightenment. Yeah. You have to be bored until you aren't bored anymore. And then everything becomes more vivid. Yeah. I mean, wow. Like, could we just still are brains enough? Like when you're going on a walk, we're supposed to be noticing the trees, but I'm just like spinning minutia in my head. Yeah.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (12:15):
Host, Stephanie Nelson (12:16):
Stop the minutia. Like,
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (12:18):
Well, it takes time to, to override that. I mean, that, that was the case for me. It took like, and in some ways, like even in the book, like I, when I read back, like I read the audio book for it a few, like a few months ago, and I was reading back over it and I was like, I realized that it was, it was, well probably, you know, a third or halfway through this trip until like it, anything started to work at all. It was just before that. It was just like, like what you're saying, it was, I was just being my normal self except I was just like grinding along the road every day and just, it takes time to like break. Yeah. I mean like, you know, these, these pathways that we've built for ourselves and the way we think through things and the way we notice things and the way that we like that, you know, like that our fears and hopes are overriding the, the things that we're seeing.
You know, it takes time to like allow those voices to be quiet and to find what's on the other side of, of Yeah. Like you, you basically just summarized my book in the best way that I could say it, which is that I started out wanting to be understood and I wanted people to see how sad I was and what I had lost. And by the end of it, like there's this beautiful word that's saunder, S o N D E R. And it's basically what it means is that it's this realization that everyone is having the same complex experience that you're having <laugh>. And it's, it's a funny thing to realize, like I, you know, in some ways I'm just a, like, I'm just a lit window in someone else's life. You know? Like they're driving past a lit window and that's, that's their experience of me.
And I think that one of the reasons why this walk was so important to me was that like, the more that I was exposed to other people's worlds and lives and sort of the flurry of humanity and then also allowing that to quiet within me, I just realized like it's tragic that they don't know what I'm going through. And it's tragic that I don't know what they're going through. And, and it's kind of this there's a line in the book that, that I think about, which is like, the one thing that we have in common is that we're all hurdling through space at an incredible rate towards a singular destination. And it, the thing that unifies us is that it hurts the whole way down for everybody, you know? And, well,
Host, Stephanie Nelson (14:11):
You met some people. So what also just struck me, oh my gosh, is how easy it is for us. You just nailed it in what you said, how easy it is for us to think we understand other people based on their outward appearance. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and how we really have no idea what people are going through. So on the one hand you met some people who anyone would look at and say, oh, they're homeless and grungy and who knows what their story is, but we will look away. And then you, from your, you know, responsible life, you became a little bit dirty cuz we're not gonna talk about your hygiene, but you started to look like a vagabond. Yeah. And you started ex tell us what that felt like, how people looked at you.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (14:56):
Yeah. It felt like, it felt like you know, there's these layers to society that I don't think that you, that we really recognize when you're sort of living in the, the top layer, which is just sort of, and, and it's so funny that like, kind of as you look like people that are, that you normally wouldn't look like you're actually, like, you kind of are given a whole new perspective into their lives and their worlds and they actually talk to you differently. And they, the way that they respond to you changes. And that was really, really beautiful. Was like being able to basically see like these people that normally would be invisible to me or that I would be sort of a specific symbol to them. Now we're the same mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and now we can talk to each other like we're the same cause cause we are the same.
But like, there's these invis invisible barriers between us. And some of the most insightful things that I learned on the walk were from people that normally I wouldn't have talked to at all. Yeah. There was, there's one character called Francis in the book who was kind of the turning point in some of my faith questions. He was a, he's a Native American who had lost his whole family and had been hitchhiking around the country for a few years. He was really young and he kind of like just reoriented this thing of basically what he said was like, I asked him why, why God didn't save my mom. And he said basically like, he was like, well, he, I think she did, I think he did save your mom. Like I, and then he said, I think you're the one that needs to be saved. And it was this like, it was this reorienting of like what it means to, to be saved really like to be, to be helped by God that like, maybe there are different ways you can be saved than the way that I thought. And it was because it was from someone that really knew suffering and really knew how bad and how far down the bottom could be. And he was, he like had just, he just got a Gideon bible from this from this shelter in San Francisco and he was like reading this bible and it, he, like it said, it saved his life. So it was my gosh, this amazing reorientation for me.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (16:46):
Wow. So when people are considering whether or not they should donate money to have Bibles distributed at shelters, you just don't know what that could do. You had so many phrases that I just held onto. You said this one several times in your book, and this is like, you encountered Francis, you got to know him, you have to read the book because it's really a beautiful story, but you'd never saw him again. Right. So Yeah, I never saw him again. He said over and over again in the book, life is full of meetings and partings. Yeah.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (17:14):
You know, I love that you caught on that. That's actually, it's a quote from the Muppets Christmas Carol, which is a book I used to watch with my family as a kid. Oh yeah. Miss, miss Piggy says it, she says, or maybe, maybe maybe Kermit the Frog. Kerman the Frog says it, and it's after, it's when Tiny Tim dies and he says Life is full of meetings and partying. And then Miss Piggy says that is the way of it. And it was a joke between my mom and I. Like we would quote that movie to each other all the time. And so at the end of it, it was like, that was kind of the, the final sort of tagline from this movie that we loved was life is full of meetings and partings. Yeah. Sorry, did I interrupted? Oh,
Host, Stephanie Nelson (17:47):
Go on. Yeah. Wow. And I didn't even know the, you know, back to the grief piece because I'm sure mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, there are people listening to this who are either in the middle of grief or they're terrified of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, those of us, before I lost my mother, I was terrified of losing my mother. How in the world could you survive that? And it's what we talked about the, it being surreal, but you ended the book by saying this and I loved it. You were talking about your family and everyone the worst had happened and we were okay. Oh my gosh, that one got me. And we were okay. And then you wrote this book and it's speaking to so many people. Your mother is so proud of you. I will tell you that right now. I will tell you if my son's ever wrote anything like this, <laugh>. And so this is 10 years ago that you did this walk. So tell me, how do you feel like that experience, it's 10 years later, do you feel like you have carried what you learned from that into your daily life now? Has it changed your life?
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (18:47):
Yeah, it, it has definitely. And it's also like, it's a place that I, you know, it's, it was a very, it was a, I think that that that type of like discipline slowing down is something you can't really recreate. And it's something that I am, that I'm like kind of envious of my previous self for. It's like, there are times when I know that I'm not, I'm still missing, you know, I'm still missing things. It was like, I sort of thought that like if I could train myself to see the world the way that I was when I was just walking all day every day, it would, it would be a richer experience. And I think it, it would be, it would be a richer experience, but, you know, you can't just walk along the side of the highway all for your whole life, <laugh>.
And so I think that it's, it's one of those things where this realization that like the door was kind of opened to a new way of looking at the world. And even when I didn't look at it all the way, I knew that you could, you know, I knew that you could look at the world that way and I knew that you could experience a slowed down like less chaotic pace and you could like, you know, lean into the harder parts of life and the realization that, you know, the most beautiful things are mundane if you look at 'em long enough and you realize that. So those are, those are pieces that like, even if I'm not practicing it every day, I I remember that you can.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (19:55):
Hmm. And so you talked about your faith in your book. How did this whole walk impact your faith? Because you were pretty honest. I mean Yeah,
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (20:04):
Yeah, yeah. A lot of, a lot of it's, you know, we in fact a lot of the feedback from this book is people especially Christians reading this book and being like, this is very confusing book for me, <laugh>. And it's, oh no, it's cause it's, yeah, go ahead.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (20:17):
If we don't, if we don't ask questions Yeah. Then I wonder if our faith is really authentic.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (20:22):
Yeah. And it's, it's not a, the kind of book you would normally read in a Christian space to be like this, you know, this is how you, this is what you do, this is how you find the thing and these are the steps. And because for me it was like, it was the opposite of that. It was like the shaking up of all of that kind of thinking. And I, I think like one of the, the best way that I can describe how my mind changed, I have a friend who's a mathematician and he one time explained I was trying to put words to the way that my, that my mind, the way that my perspective changed. And, and in some ways I think I have a more vibrant faith than I ever have after that. Although it shook it all up and a lot of things got left behind in that process.
I think what it is, is it's this like my friend who's a mathematician, he says that, he told me one time he was like, you know, the math exists whether or not we know how to access the math. Like, basically the point is that like one plus one equals two. Whether or not, you know, what a number one and what a number two looks like and what a plus sign and what an equal sign looks like, that's always gonna be the case. One plus one is gonna equal two. Whether or not we know how to communicate that or how to access that. And you know, math is extraordinarily complex. There's like these algorithms that we can use to access the math, right? And he's like, but it exists whether or not we have those, we have the, that those formulas and those numbers and those symbols and these ways of accessing it.
And he, and he was basically like, you know, and I think I realized like, oh my gosh, that's how, that's how God is mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I think that like, that was my realization was that like my whole life I sort of thought that God was the plus sign and God was the formula and God was the numbers. And, and it's like, no, no, no, we have a lot of really beautiful ways of accessing God. And I think that, you know, I, I have opinions about some of those things being, you know, objectively true, like capital T true. But at the end of the day, like God exists whether or not we have any way of accessing him or we have any, you know, any of these formulas and these ways through to find him like he's well beyond that. And I think that like there's this sort of mystery and wonder that is open to you when you realized that like, I'm just kind of doing my best and God is enormous and infinite and beyond time and understanding and that exists whether or not I know how to find him in this moment.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (22:29):
I love that that is your highlight reel on social media. That was so beautiful. <Laugh>, this whole book is so beautiful. So I think that it's available, tell us where it's available and also tell us about your music. Tell us where people can find your music and tell us what your music is about.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (22:47):
Yeah, thank you for asking about that. The book is available everywhere. It's on Amazon and it's at your local bookstore probably. And it's at Barnes Noble and it's at my, on my website, which is tyson mosbacher.com. And yeah, you should be able to, it's also, there's e-readers and there are like, you could get it on a Kindle and you can get it, you can get a an audio book, which I read, which is cool. Yeah. And I have a number of records out and some of them deal a lot with these types of questions and things, especially my first record. And my third record, which is called the first one's called Letter Salas Loves, which is actually one that I wrote during this walk. It's kind of what started the whole thing for me. So I wrote a bunch of the songs on the walk and then the other one is called Somebody I'll Make It All Up to You. And that one has some stuff about a lot of these questions as well. They're kind of folk records a little bit Rock and roll and yeah, you can buy those online as well or at my website. Oh, good. And I also play lots of shows and stuff, so I'm probably coming to a town nearby in the future so you can you can find all that stuff online as well. Well,
Host, Stephanie Nelson (23:49):
I'm gonna put all of that in the show notes. And I have to tell you, I saw in your bio that you have played the Ryman Auditorium three times.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (23:56):
Three times. Yeah. How
Host, Stephanie Nelson (23:57):
Cool was that?
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (23:58):
Oh, that was Are you, are you based in Nashville?
Host, Stephanie Nelson (24:00):
I, I've been there. I'm based in Atlanta, but we've been to Grim Auditorium. It's so cool.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (24:05):
That one's a, a life changer. Yeah, that one's amazing. It's a, yeah, that one, the first time I played there especially, it was like, it felt like that was one of the most intimidating stages I felt like you walk out, there's this old beautiful church in downtown Nashville. It was the original Grand Ole Opry. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> this, everybody's putting, you know, Bob Dylan and Neil Young and Paul McCartney and everybody's played there. So it's like just kind of amazing to play the stage that all your heroes have been on.
Host, Stephanie Nelson (24:30):
Yeah, I mean it's the I guess amazing acoustics. So all you have to do is say, Hey, the guy has played Thery and Auditorium three times. That's not a coincidence. So uses the real deal. But you're also a beautiful author and Thank you. This is a great book. I don't know if there's gonna be more books, but I don't know if there's gonna be more walks.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (24:49):
Host, Stephanie Nelson (24:50):
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (24:51):
There probably won't be more walks, at least to this extent, but I hope to be a walker like you forever. So there
Host, Stephanie Nelson (24:56):
You go. Five miles is good. It's great to talk to you. That's great. Thanks so much. And I will put all his information in our show notes.
Author, Tyson Motsenbocker (25:05):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. It was really lovely to talk to you. Thank you.