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Pivotal People
Uncovering the Leader in Each of Us with Tim Lupinacci
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Can leadership truly be found within each of us? Let's uncover the answer in our engaging conversation with Tim Lupinacci, the CEO and Chair of the Baker Donelson law firm, one of the largest firms in the country. Not just a successful business leader, Tim is a self-proclaimed leadership junkie, actively transforming his car into a leadership university and practicing 'dinner table diplomacy' to better understand and inspire those around him. As the founder of the nonprofit Everybody Leads, he's dedicated to fostering leadership skills and confidence in underserved communities.
Our discussion with Tim Lupinacci takes you on a journey exploring the power of words and mindful communication, from impactful quotes to a simple phrase from his nephew that holds immense significance. He shares with us how one sentence altered his career path, reinforcing how words can shape our lives. As we delve deeper into his leadership journey, we explore how he invests in relationships, practices active listening, and creates a conducive environment for ideas and feedback in his firm. Here's an episode that reminds us that leadership is not confined to titles or roles but is a potential within us all. So, let's tune in and uncover the leader in each of us!
Connect with Tim for more information:
CEO of Baker Donelson law firm: https://www.bakerdonelson.com/
Founder of nonprofit "Everybody Leads": https://everybodyleads.org/
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Tim Lupinacci on Everybody Leads
Speaker 1I'd like to welcome Tim Lupinacci to the Pivotal People podcast . I'm so excited that he was willing to spend time with us today because he is full of wisdom and insight for all of us . On the topic of leadership , tim is actually the CEO and chair of one of the country's largest law firms , baker Donaldson . He is responsible for 1,300 people in 22 offices throughout the Southeast . He describes himself as a leadership junkie . He's launched a nonprofit called Everybody Leads , which is focused on empowering individuals in underserved communities with basic leadership skills and confidence to better lead themselves , lead others and lead in the community . His focus is really equipping everyone , regardless of title , position or role , with the confidence and skills to lead more effectively . This is all of us , not just those of us who are working in a business environment . We can lead in our families , we can lead in our friendships . We can lead in our community . So , tim , thank you so much for spending some time with us and giving us a chance to learn more about what Everybody Leads means .
Speaker 2Stephanie , thank you so much . It's been such a joy to get to know you and you're an inspiration to me , so just spending time with you this is a highlight of my day .
Speaker 1Now you see why I like him so much . I also have to say Tim has written a great book called Everybody Leads . He has let me read some chapters of it . I've taken a lot of notes , of course , but I'd love to get your perspective . Could you expand on this whole concept , which was really kind of new to me , of Everybody Leads , regardless of title or position ?
Speaker 2Yeah , stephanie , I would love to , and it really interestingly it intersects with the podcast and I know you've done writing on pivotal people in our lives that impact us , whether it's a long-term relationship or even just one intersection . So I was a young lawyer and I did not have any lawyers in my family or my background , so I didn't really know what that meant . I really literally feel like I stumbled into the practice of law , although I had to go to law school . I made that decision . But now I'm working for a big firm and I viewed everything as very transactional . I would get a project , hopefully do it really well , turn it in and go on to the next project .
Speaker 2And my boss at the time assigned a very large project to me and another lawyer who was about five or six years older than me , a big financial project we're trying to analyze a bunch of things to get ready for court hearing and I did my part , turned it into the more senior lawyer .
Speaker 2He cleaned it up , we turned it in and I went on literally to the next project , not thinking about it again . And then , until I got paged to go into his office the boss's office with the more mid-level lawyer , and he was on the phone with what turned out to be a dozen other lawyers from around the country and he starts yelling at us saying that these idiots are going to fix the mistake they made if they stay here all night . And so I'm thinking , am I losing my job ? I mean , obviously it was this project we had done . We had missed something , and then we had . We had made a pretty big mistake . We knew what we had done once the other lawyers pointed it out , so we did spend a good bit of the rest of the day and night fixing it . We sent it out to everybody and I had drawn the short straw the next morning that I had to pick up my boss and drive him to court , which was about an hour drive , and it's very all the same one who yelled at you .
Speaker 2It was yelling at us . So and by the way , as an aside , that's not . I don't think that's a good leadership tip to just yell at people and call them names in front of others . But anyway , it was my reality at the moment and I'm driving awkward silence . And he finally speaks and says that he actually starts with an apology . He said I shouldn't have yelled at you in front of others , which I thought was . I appreciated that . And he said but the reason I was so angry is because I believe in you as a leader , that you really have a strong career ahead of you , and I'm just disappointed you didn't own this project .
Speaker 2And of course in my mind I was thinking well , the mid-level attorney's got it .
Speaker 2I mean , he knows more than I do , I'm just turning it in .
Speaker 2But it was like the light bulb just kind of clicked that I needed to be a leader and I needed to own my projects and I needed to do the best I could to make sure it was right , not relying on someone else to make it right . But then I also had this realization I didn't know what it meant to be a leader . That was really , as I recall , the first time someone really spoke into me about that , and so that led me on this journey of just a lifelong trying to figure out how can I get to be a better leader and try to invest in myself in those concepts . And that's why I think I'm like a leadership junkie or student , because I just have studied a lot about it to try to get myself better . So it's kind of the start of the whole idea and that I didn't have a title , I didn't have a lot of experience , but I could be a leader and it was a new concept that then I've tried to explore for 30 plus years now .
Speaker 1Well , there's so much to unpack there , so I've given thought . Tim opens his book with this story . There's a couple of things . One is what you heard . So your boss said a lot of things to you , and each individual in that situation would hear something different . Thank goodness you heard the positive , encouraging words that he said , because , frankly , I don't know how old you were , but at that age I might have just said , oh my gosh , they don't like me , I am leaving , I'm finding another job , which is instead . What you heard was you have the potential to be a great leader . And so a couple of things , because I know the answer since I read your book , but listeners don't know yet . Tell me how you really you call it working on being a leader to yourself first . You can't lead other people unless you have developed yourself as a leader to yourself , and that involved a lot of self-study and a lot of self-motivated training . Talk to us about that . You give great advice for how people can do this .
Speaker 2Well , thank you , stephanie . And you know it is interesting because I think at that point in time there's a lot driven by fear too . Right , I didn't know that I would have another job opportunity and I had law school debt and I said , okay , well , I really got to figure this out . And so it did lead me to look at some of the popular leadership books at the time , and one of the ones that was out there that became a pretty seminal work is a John Maxwell's 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership . So I read that and it just started , and he talks a lot about this idea that I have to be a better leader myself before I can think about leading others and so and so that gave me
Investing in Relationships for Leadership
Speaker 2some great insight .
Speaker 2But then something else that I heard around this time is this idea that you know we all like I was like I'm a very busy lawyer . When do I have time to invest in myself ? When do I do this ? And somebody mentioned that you know I could listen to books on tape in the car . This was back when , of course , you had cassette tapes and the more podcast and things , but that I could really turn my car into like a mini leadership university type situation , because I had about a 30 minute community tour and that would be an hour of , you know , trying to build into myself .
Speaker 2So I've started using that time instead of sports , radio or the news , trying to do that , invest in myself , trying to go to a leadership conference when I could see one that was in the area , and those .
Speaker 2Those were just some of the steps I initially took , and then , as I grew and had been practicing law a few years and I ended up having some young individuals that really were working for me now , or at least working through me , I started getting them together every week or two to have like a coffee break to kind of hear what was going on in their world , but then also talk about leadership together . And so now I'm kind of convert , like I'm learning some of this stuff , but how can we all get better as a team ? And invited some other leaders in the firm to come in and just spend 15 , 30 minutes talking about themselves which of course everyone loves to do , particularly lawyers and about leadership though . And so then that's like I got to get better at myself and leadership and then kind of build it out into others and get them inspired to do the same thing . So those are some things I was thinking about at that time frame .
Speaker 1And then you talk about the idea of leading others . Well , the idea of not just well , I'm going to read it directly from you because I loved it Leadership is an activity , not a job description . As you engage the hearts and minds of those you lead , you will begin having increased influence , which leads to a real and lasting impact . And , as you said , you can do that regardless of what your title or your position is . But it also takes investment in time . Could you talk about how you have put a priority on relationships before you can really expect to lead and influence people ?
Speaker 2Right and I think and that really is what drives me is relationships . I know I tend to be more of a relationship type person . I love interacting , understanding individuals' journeys and what's brought them to this point , and so that really gets me fired up . It fills up my cup to get to meet new people and learn about them and their journey . So it's always been kind of a part of me I really wanted to take particularly .
Speaker 2I became the CEO about five years ago , four and a half years ago , and it was a transition period , but we had a town hall meeting that really introduced me to the firm . I knew a lot of folks around the firm , but not everyone , and so in that meeting I was just giving a little bit about my journey and about my thoughts and about how we could lead the firm forward . And I've really talked a lot about this idea of we needed all 1,300 people to really view themselves as a leader , to lead in their different areas , whether they had a title . I mean some of the best . One of the best leaders in our firm is someone who was her title's probably receptionist of one of our offices , but she owns that place and she then impacts our clients and our colleagues . And then that letter to get an elevated job title because she just owned where she was and was really an impact player .
Speaker 2But so I really wanted to first speak into our colleagues . That that was my philosophy , that they were all leaders and I wanted them . I wanted all of us to step up . But then I have to put action behind that , because words can just be said and then you move on and say , well , that was nice of that .
Speaker 2So the first thing in that instance was I went around to every office and did a town hall meeting with everyone and asked them to get feedback and tell me what we had had some challenges in the firm it's an English way to get better at and so we did that . And then it was important as a leader to not just hear them and listen to them but then actually act on it . Again , putting action behind listening . I didn't do everything they said , but there were a lot of things that were really insightful . So those are some of the early seeds I did .
Speaker 2But then when I think about , like our core leadership team and really our owners or shareholders , one of the things that I really enjoy doing because I do like interacting with people is something I think Winston Church will call it Dinner table diplomacy is getting around coffee break or lunch or dinner and I typically will have ideas or things that we're trying to accomplish in those dinners or meetings , but for the most part I want to just get to know people and what makes them tick and how I can help motivate them and what are the obstacles I can help remove to help them achieve their highest potential . So those are some things I've done in investing in relationships is it takes time and it's hard work but I think I think it pays dividends . It has for us as a firm as we built this concept of everybody leading and really building these relationships .
Speaker 1Well , and what I am thinking like as having been an employee before the power of being heard . So , for those employees at every level , you took the time in your book . You have 22 offices . You took the time to meet personally with all of the partners and then , because there are 1300 people , that's a lot of people to cover you had group meetings , whether it was lunch or dinner or coffee , with everyone else and I can't imagine how powerful it was for those people at every level to feel like number one . You were listening , whether you acted on it or not , you were listening and just giving people that dignity and number because , remember , regardless of the title , everyone is spending most of their waking hours at this thing .
Speaker 1Right , and to be in a job where you don't feel like you're heard or you don't feel like your opinion matters , would be so discouraging . Even in the cases where you didn't implement their ideas , at least you listened . But let's take it a step further . In these situations where you implemented the ideas and then people saw business results , I cannot imagine how much of an impact it had on those employees and on the other employees who saw that happen . So I always think that most of us are probably more capable of what we can produce than what we're currently producing , to have the encouragement of seeing that , hey , this is a place where I might be able to make a contribution . Then maybe that person will read more leadership books , maybe they will listen to more podcasts . And now you've created a culture that , as you said , pays dividends . That's what paying dividends is . I think it's getting the most out of people's gifts and talents .
Speaker 2Right , I totally agree . And , of course , if you're running a for-profit or even if you're running a nonprofit , there's expectations of outcomes and I've got financial expectations I have to accomplish , pay the bills , keep the lights on . But what drives me is our people and investing in our people and spending time with our people . And then I'm convinced some people call it soft skills , things like emotional intelligence , but I think that it helps us get better and it will drive those results of serving our clients better and it leads to better revenue and financial results . And so I think it's all interconnected , but I like coming at it more from the people side .
Speaker 1Well , and you also had an example in your book of what happens when we move too quickly to our own conclusions , too quickly to just the business at hand . I think Bob Goff says it's like scuba diving when you're trying to build a relationship , you want to go slowly . If you go too fast , you get the bends .
Speaker 2I love that . That's exactly right . And I've experienced that where I've gotten the bends in some of these dinner table diplomacies , where I did have some sometimes I don't have like a important business outcome that I hope that this discussion will lead to . But I did go into one meeting where I just had the stakeholders and it was just so clear to me about an action we need to do and I'm just we got through all the how's everyone doing and catching up and we got the orders and we're talking . I said so , are we ready to execute on this new initiative ?
Speaker 2And it just went totally off the rails because I had not had enough time individually with the folks to really understand and see the vision that I clearly could see and I'm not saying my vision is always right , it's not and I did rethink things based on that . But it was a pretty tough conversation and then some people got their feelings hurt but then we ultimately came back and just talked about something like football or whatever . I mean it wasn't football but music , I guess . So anyway , you're exactly right that . And again it all comes back to relationships , right ? I mean you have to get folks engaged in seeing the vision , wanting to be a part of the vision and wanting to execute on it before you can help move them and pull them and work together to move that along .
Speaker 1And you talked to . Ok , so the basis of that relationship is trust . And talk to us . You really explained this well in your book . Talk to us about the importance of trust before you can get anywhere .
Speaker 2Right and I've just seen it . When I became CEO , we had had a really had a struggle for a number of years financially and we were kind of plateaued as a firm . And so I really had to build and here comes in somebody who had done some people knew , but others didn't and I had to really build that trust that I wanted feedback . Everyone had opinions about how we could do things better , but they didn't feel like they were being heard to the point we were talking about earlier . So I had to build that trust that I would listen , that I would treat them with respect and that I would be honest . When we were having struggles , and even during COVID , when everyone was uncertain , we started doing daily video updates for me , just so people could see what I was , you know , see my face when , like we were having anguish of having to , you know , do across the board , you know reduction of compensation , just to see what happened . And I'm very thankful we ultimately got it all paid back .
Speaker 2But just that building that trust of transparency . And and then the other thing that really is important to me is I admit mistakes , because I make mistakes all the time and we I have , we have taken some action and then the without having the good , solid foundation on on the execution and support of it , and we've I've come back and said look , that was a mistake , thank you for the feedback . We learned from that and now we're trying to get better and go in a different direction . There's a lot in there , but I think it is important about the transparency and willing to admit mistake , getting feedback and then just being true to your word and being honest , and what we do is so difficult in trying to run business and trying to lead that if I don't build that trust and our colleagues , then I think we really would struggle through COVID and through transforming the firm into a best run business , which is something I talk about . So , anyway , I think trust is just very important and try to live it out .
Speaker 1And trust . I'm sitting here thinking this all applies to parenting , this all applies to friendships , this all applies to leading your women's small group of church . It's all the same concept and the other thing you talk about . So I was curiosity and so I'm going to share my little thing first . But Tim and I met at an event that Bob Goff hosted and there were 150 people there and it was a really fun place . It was a young life camp with all kinds of activities .
Speaker 1So many people brought their families , their kids , they brought their spouses , and I went by myself and I immediately recognized wow , I'm going to have a lot of downtime . I'll by myself . How am I going to really make the most of this three or four days ? And so I decided to make it a game . And I decided to be curious because I thought there are 150 people here who Bob Goff invited and I know for a fact that all of them have an interesting story . So why don't you make it a game to see how many stories you can really learn ?
Speaker 1And I actually kept notes , I took notes and , oh my gosh , I learned so much . Just made me think this is how I should approach life . I learned so many things about so many topics I never would have known . All of these are people who are trying to make a difference in the world with the topic that they really love Homelessness and the guy who worked at Disney and the guy who worked in television . And we're talking to Tim , who's a CEO of a law firm I mean , I don't even know any CEOs of law firms and he's doing this fabulous thing . So I came away from that saying , ok , I want to approach life with more curiosity because everybody has an interesting story . So you talk a lot in your book about curiosity , so I'm going to be quiet and let you expand on that .
Speaker 2Well , I think you said it brilliantly , stephanie , because it's funny , because I ended up doing a similar thing at that event , because my wife was with me , but I didn't know many people there . And another topic we could go down is that sometimes we'll struggle with imposter syndrome and at some point could you say , just these incredible 150 people . I didn't feel like I was like , what am I doing here ? And so I was like , well , I was going to be curious , certainly , to learn about their journey and how they knew Bob certainly was a good question , but then my daughter is getting married in February and so I'm trying to do something around , some advice for them and as they come together . And so I just started asking as you said , there were a lot of couples there and families and as I started asking about tips they would give to newlyweds and trying to start compiling them . So I say all that , I think you're exactly right .
Power of Words, Nonprofit Leadership
Speaker 2I certainly don't know everything and I want to learn varying views and points of view and different perspectives and , as I said , everyone's been on a journey that's different from mine , and so I get , I learn and get inspired by that .
Speaker 2It really does tie back to the whole how I can get better every day as a leader is to keep feeding my mind and my thoughts with books and podcasts like yours and other podcasts and audio books , materials , going to conferences , and a lot of times I love reading things from leaders and individuals who aren't running a law firm or even in professional services . It's other industries , it's other , it's nonprofits , it's folks trying to change the world , and that just will put some seeds into my head about things that then I can come and maybe that will work in our firm and I can help be better as a leader , even though it's an idea that doesn't necessarily fit into the legal industry initially . But how can we modify that and get better at it ? So anyway , I'm like you . I love asking questions . My wife Ellen says every once in a while I'll get into deposition mode , being a lawyer , that I just start asking people questions , and I was never a litigator that I would ask to depositions , but it's the curiosity coming through .
Speaker 1So it's the curiosity . I actually should have a limp , because when my husband and I are at a dinner party he says I asked too many questions . And when I've exceeded what he thinks is the realistic number of questions , he squeezes my left knee hard and that's the signal for Stephanie's stop asking questions . So that's why I say I should have a limp . But at least he doesn't say it out loud , he doesn't embarrass me .
Speaker 2Right , right , that's right . But I'm like why do you ?
Speaker 1Yeah , so , tim , if you ever run a company that's easier than being a lawyer , like something really easy , I would like to work for you . I think it sounds fun , but we're not done yet . We're not done yet because I have a couple more questions . You wrote a beautiful chapter about the power of words , and this applies again to all of us . Here's a quote Words can encourage or they can deflate . There is no neutral . You quoted Brendan Manning , who I really like . You said what an incredible power each of us possesses to close the distance with our colleagues in every interaction throughout the day through words of gratitude and hope . Wow , ok , so you had some great examples of words that either you or other people heard , or are positive or negative , but spend a little bit of time here because it's so easy for us to forget this .
Speaker 2Right and it is . And even the reminder of you reading that back to me just remind me . We're heading into some leadership meetings the next couple of days . We're going to have 50 of our leaders together and that I have to really intentionally make sure that I'm doing exactly that , because this is a group that really is driving our needle . But there's a lot to unpack with that .
Speaker 2I love how that quote from Brennan Manning . Then the artist Toby Mack turned that into a song called Speak Life , and I think about that a lot and the concept that in every interaction we can speak life into individuals . And again with the hope , positivity , maybe about faith , but it's just , it's our choice . And a lot of times I think I get overwhelmed and think , well , it's too hard or that it's , how am I going to ? How am I going to really do that for 1300 people ?
Speaker 2And then I'm reminded of my nephew who , through a funny situation I won't go into because of the time , but calls me super Tim , like the Superman , super Tim , and anytime I see him he's about five or six now he still runs up to me and says super Tim and gives me a hug . Well , that's two words that any . He's my favorite nephew . I shouldn't say that because I have some other nephews , but because it just makes me feel like I can do anything right and that's just two words .
Speaker 2So maybe not , you know , don't have to say , hey , stephanie , you're , you know , you're Wonder Woman , although you are , you know . But it's ways that just look for little , small things of encouragement and gratitude and and expressing that for individuals and make it personal , like you see somebody in the action of doing something . Really well , you know , hey , thank you for doing that , rather than just you know , thank you and moving on . So I try to live it out . It's hard , but , but I think sometimes I think in my head it's it's too hard , I can't do it , I don't have enough time to do it , and it's just simple words .
Speaker 1So yeah , it's the power of words that doesn't cost anything to give away . You said it's hard because we have to be intentional , we have to pay attention , but wow , what value . We all can think of examples of a couple of words that someone said to us that stuck . I actually , for one of our podcast , I looked up my favorite boss from 35 years ago . I found her on LinkedIn and I asked her if she'd come on the podcast and it was a half a sentence .
Speaker 1She said to me that changed the trajectory of my career and she , you know , went on to become the president of a division of a multi-billion dollar company . She's now she's retired and she's an executive coach . And you know the single quality I wrote about her in my book , the single quality she had , that you know how does a , how does a woman get to this level ? You would think she might be ruthless , right , that might be your first thought . No , she was a total . She just cared about people and she cared about them emotionally and personally , before it was even in fashion in business .
Speaker 1There was no term for emotional intelligence back then . She just plain cared about people and she was also very smart with business skills . So , yes , she combined those two things . But I can remember when COVID happened she told me the story . It was the hospitality industry and they just had to lay everyone off and she said you know what ? That wasn't going to be a phone call , that was going to be face to face , personal . There is no way I could have these people going through that so impersonally . Yeah , so anyway , it was kind of fun to have her on the podcast and let the world know she was my favorite boss ever .
Speaker 2I love that . Yes , I love that and it is . I mean , like you said , it's it's . It's often just a few words , and the reverse is true too , and I've read about this book but many times I've messed this up and and and been very short with words , and so we just have a lot of power . Each of us do and it's just , and we're all going to make mistakes , but it's just trying to really think about it . And I love that context of how can I speak life into somebody to help them get inspired and fill up , you know , their bucket in what they're trying to accomplish .
Speaker 1So I think 35 years from now , you're going to be hearing from a whole lot of people before we finish . Before we finish , I'm kind of fascinated with your nonprofit . Could you talk to us about your vision for this and what's happening with it ?
Speaker 2Sure , just very quickly , is that ? It's funny because you mentioned Bob Goff a couple of years ago . He asked me what's 10 plus five years ? 10 plus 10 years look like ?
Speaker 2And I'd been working through a lot of different things and ultimately I thought , well , I've learned a lot of great skills from others about leadership and practical things , so maybe it's leading in a nonprofit sector in some setting . And and he said , well , why don't you start your own ? And that led to further discussions . Of course that sounds just like him . I said yeah , but since I love leadership and I want to help impact the community and the world for good , it really just was this marriage of basic leadership skills that I've been able to be fortunate to learn and grow in . Could we use those basic principles to work with nonprofits and underserved communities , like individuals reentering society from prison .
Speaker 2Or we work as a firm with a lot of organizations that really help eradicate homelessness and they're helping people move off the street , off the housing insecurity , by setting up bank accounts and basic life skills and job skills . But now they have a job that they might have a need for conflict resolution , training and building relationships and showing up . And so it was more just talking to these different organizations that there seemed to be a way to partner with them to help it provide basic leadership training , and so that's what I've taken the contents of the book turned into a manual and have been done , testing it with some nonprofits here in Birmingham , and so we do have a website . We're trying to get it up and , you know , expand it out , but it's very much in process right now with the help of a summer or a college intern who's helping me and so excited about it . But I don't have enough time in the day to kind of do all of it right .
Speaker 1That's right . Well , you know just a few steps . It doesn't have to go fast , and sometimes my experience has been having even when things go slowly because you have so many things in your plate . It gives it more learning time , more incubation time and you're , I think , less likely to make mistakes . Right , I've learned much already .
Speaker 2Yes , I have to learn very much already in the few organizations I've been working with their cohorts .
Speaker 1So I love that you started a nonprofit . I always say you got to watch out for Bob Goff's ideas , because he's I mean , that's why he has so many followers because he really does inspire you to just maximize whatever it is you're here for , right To really just do . Love does his book , love does . So you're obviously doing that both where you work outside that with your family . I wish you the best with your daughter's wedding . That is going to be so exciting talking to Ellen about that and I love the devotional book you're putting together for her , so I will share your information on the show notes . Your book isn't out yet . When it is , we'll let everyone know , but you can find Tim on LinkedIn and he's also available as a speaker . So where is the best ? What's the best way for people to connect with you if they'd like you to speak , whether it be on Zoom or in person ?
Speaker 2Sure . Linkedin is a great place , and I watched that about the . I'm on our law firm's website . That's probably where I probably most find most of my contact information . Baker Donaldson , b-a-k-e-r-d-o-n-e-l-s-o-n dot com Would probably be the best place . And then everybody leads with an Sorg . I'm also there , so everybody leadsorg .
Speaker 1Okay , well , thank you so much for your time . It's been great and I hope to see you at a future event .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1Absolutely .
Speaker 2I enjoyed this , Stephanie . Thank you very much for all you do .
Speaker 1Thank you so much , tim , take care .
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