In this episode I chatted with Kori Reed, author of Men in the Middle: Conversations to Gain Momentum with Gender Equity's Silent Majority. Drawing from her personal experiences as the only female in her family, Kori shares insights about the pivotal role men, who aren't on the extreme ends of behavior, play in driving change. Kori explains the intricate tangle of gender dynamics, highlighting the importance of connection and understanding in creating a more equitable society.
Kori helped me understand the complexity of equity, and the role emotions often play in overshadowing data-driven decision making. She also underscored the significance of women empowering each other in the workplace, helping to normalize these vital conversations.
Kori explains the often unspoken challenges men face in their journey towards gender equity. She elaborates on the need for people to start a different conversation, one that fosters understanding and empathy. She explains how balancing career success with personal sacrifices is an issue for both men and women (rather than being considered a women's issue only) so we explore how to create a space where everyone thrives.
Kori's book helped me recognize and appreciate the importance of 'men in the middle' in creating a more equitable society. Tune in for an enlightening dialogue that promises to broaden your perspective on gender equity.
Order Stephanie's new book Imagine More: Do What You Love, Discover Your Potential
Learn more at StephanieNelson.com
Follow us on Instagram @stephanie_nelson_cm
Follow us on Facebook at CouponMom
In this episode I chatted with Kori Reed, author of Men in the Middle: Conversations to Gain Momentum with Gender Equity's Silent Majority. Drawing from her personal experiences as the only female in her family, Kori shares insights about the pivotal role men, who aren't on the extreme ends of behavior, play in driving change. Kori explains the intricate tangle of gender dynamics, highlighting the importance of connection and understanding in creating a more equitable society.
Kori helped me understand the complexity of equity, and the role emotions often play in overshadowing data-driven decision making. She also underscored the significance of women empowering each other in the workplace, helping to normalize these vital conversations.
Kori explains the often unspoken challenges men face in their journey towards gender equity. She elaborates on the need for people to start a different conversation, one that fosters understanding and empathy. She explains how balancing career success with personal sacrifices is an issue for both men and women (rather than being considered a women's issue only) so we explore how to create a space where everyone thrives.
Kori's book helped me recognize and appreciate the importance of 'men in the middle' in creating a more equitable society. Tune in for an enlightening dialogue that promises to broaden your perspective on gender equity.
Order Stephanie's new book Imagine More: Do What You Love, Discover Your Potential
Learn more at StephanieNelson.com
Follow us on Instagram @stephanie_nelson_cm
Follow us on Facebook at CouponMom
Well, I'd like to welcome Corey Reid to the Pivotal People podcast. Corey is the author of a new book. It's called Men in the Middle Conversations to Gain Momentum with Gender Equities Silent Majority. I'll tell you what. When I saw the title of that book I was like, oh gosh, maybe this is a little touchy. Then I thought but I want to read it because I want to know what is this book talking about? I was just telling Corey that I personally have not been in the corporate world for 30 years. I haven't really encountered this. Then I stopped and said wait a second. I have two sons and a husband and a male dog.
Speaker 1:I've always been the only female in our family. I can remember the day my second son was born in the delivery room. I'll admit I was hoping for a girl. It was my second child. She said she had two boys and she said I'll tell you what the thing about having sons is. You get to see the world through a man's eyes when you're their mother. That has stuck with me for the 30 years that I've been a mother. It is true, you see the world through the other gender's eyes because we care about them and we're communicating. That's why I'm excited about Corey's book because I've read the whole book and she's talking about exactly that. Can we connect? Can we understand each other? Can we have relationships? Can we not be afraid of the elephant in the room? I haven't done you justice, Corey, but welcome. I can't wait to talk about your book.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, Certainly. First of all, Stephanie, I love the idea of the pivotal people. I think that's so exciting and you and I can both share probably a number of pivotal people in our lives, including our sons. I think that just the idea of the bold vision and having conversations I appreciate the opportunity and you're an incredibly accomplished person. I think it's so cool that you've just been an entrepreneur and really grown your business. I think, whether corporate or whatever identity, I just think it's really empowering that women and people connect, women and men connect to drive bold vision. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you a little bit about Corey. She's an author. Obviously, we're talking about her book. She's also a speaker. She's a communicator. She's a facilitator. She has worked in the corporate environment as a consultant, as a communicator. Here's the summary of who she is from her website, and I loved it. It's simply this. This is what we should all aspire to. Corey has spent years inspiring conversations that fuel connection and then ignite change. How many times do we try to push change through without connecting first?
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh. And I'll tell you, stephanie, I just was listening to the interview had with Bob goff and I love, I love the idea that he said that that meet people where they are right. We all have passion about what our viewpoints are and I think you started off so well talking about Looking at the world from a different perspective. I have two sons and two daughters and, yes, both teach me different things, but certainly the suns, and I mentioned that one point. I was outnumbered in my house to when the girls went to college and so I think that idea of connecting but it really is the aspect of meeting people where they are, in learning and growing together.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about this title men in the middle. Can you define what that means?
Speaker 2:Yes. So what it really means is what, after the height of me to, we had the extremes that we saw in the media. Right, we had the, the examples of harassment and behavior that nobody wants to experience, and I think certainly we were. The women were elevated in their voices, speaking up about those experiences. And then we have the extreme of the men who actually were standing up and saying something not as many, but speaking up. But when I talk about the men in the middle, the bell shaped curve when I did interviews with men about this topic we can talk about. What I found is men have a lot to say. They just weren't talking about it. And we're not talking about the extremes. We're not talking to people who are the extreme behaviors on either side, but I would call good guys except there's already a book called good guys but good guys in the middle that really could influence change, but just weren't speaking up about the issue.
Speaker 1:Because they were a little uncomfortable. They're afraid that they might say the wrong thing. They're afraid they might be misunderstood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what inspired me is right after me to, I noticed that women were speaking up, including me, sharing our stories at the water cooler restaurants, wherever you are speaking, speaking and sharing our stories. But the guys I worked with and I worked with many men in my career over 30 years, what I consider good guys they weren't saying much at all or Worse yet there were aspects of saying that they couldn't do certain things, like they couldn't be with the women alone in the office, they couldn't have lunch with the woman, and it puzzled me because, to be honest, I've been the only woman on teams a lot of times and I thought, gosh, if I couldn't meet with someone alone in my office about confidential information or or over, you know, business dinners. You're nothing inappropriate, but you learn so much about the business and that would be a disadvantage for me in my career.
Speaker 1:And so I thought how we really need to talk about this issue because if we were to say now I have respect for you know, there are men who say it's, it's not appropriate. I don't want to be put in that situation and I'm gonna respect that. However, then in fairness we would have to make it the other way to you can't meet alone with the man in the office Exactly two women. You can't be at a disadvantage. What about a man who's working in a female dominated company? That's not fair either. So Now then you're like okay, now that's ridiculous. So can we, instead of saying I can't meet alone in the office, is there some kind of compromise? Corey, what would you suggest to the manager who wants to respect his personal values are her personal values and yet wants to be able to have a confidential meeting? How would you approach that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, I think there are ways to do it exactly zoom, or or there are ways to do it in. You know, people sometimes have Glass offices. I still don't think that's awesome idea, but even that is a small step toward that. Or or even meeting in a public place right are having lunch in a very public entity. There are opportunities to connect, and that's really what we talked about earlier how do we find ways to connect with each other?
Speaker 2:I wrote my own manifesto doing this book, and I said you know, many women are heroes alone, but superheroes together. By God's design, we're different, right, god made us differently and the beauty of that is together we're really a powerful force. We have different skill sets and pieces, and so Research is really strong about about the leveraging the differences between men and women to make a more powerful statement, and so I think, just finding that opportunity, like you said, maybe there's a public venue can meet at, maybe there's over zoom that you can have a conversation, and then I always think it's best to bring up the elephant in the room and say, hey, I'm not comfortable with this, because this is the reason why. So how can we be perfectly transparent and disclosive about this situation? And they're just not the conversations and aren't happening. So I just want to like, with a book, start normalizing those so that we can say, okay, let's have these conversations.
Speaker 1:Because you certainly had, under you know, confidential, anonymous understanding. You had thirty men who volunteered to be interviewed.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was amazing when. So I initially started a friend of mine, a pivotal friend in my life, I'd say when I have made the observation that I'm, the men were speaking up. She's a market researcher and she should. She's a court. You can research it. Don't make assumptions. Such a great you know Something. I should have known, stephanie, but what a great for me.
Speaker 2:And I hired a professional researcher and when we first put out the ask, we didn't know if men would respond or not. So we offered a hundred dollar gift card anonymous. You know conditions, and I was really please turn at work that thirty men said yes, from managers to see eos and they just really ended up being delightful conversations. Now, given since it was a research piece, I wasn't pushing back, I was just listening. I was asking questions by a question guy and listening, and I think that allowed the men to speak up and many ways. But there is some delightful conversations. One time. What are my favorite stories is what I call. This guy was so excited. He said oh my gosh, I've been waiting to talk about this for eighteen months but nobody's asked me, and I thought isn't that interesting that he had a lot to say and stereotypically, in corporations we hear men speaking up, but women, you know either getting talked over, but in this case the men had a lot to say but they weren't speaking up about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, interesting well now, and I don't mean to be naive, and maybe everyone knows this but me but there were two points you made and as soon as I read them I was like, well, of course that makes sense, but it hadn't occurred to me until I read it. So I'm just gonna. One thing the term gender equity. Yes, now people might say, oh, these are women's issues and okay, now, these are human issues. Yes, men are.
Speaker 1:It's just as discriminatory for men to act as if their family is a priority. Yes, you know, family balance, that's a woman's issue. Well, you know what the guy would also like to see a sunspice buggy, without having to apologize for leaving it for thirty, or whatever it is. So I think we're a little closer to that idea than we were thirty years ago. So, gender equity we're calling it gender equity because men are gender two. And the second piece, which I thought was fascinating and I'd love you to talk a little more about the true statistics here this is not about being nice to women. This is not about, you know, making it an even playing field. This is about what we care about in business, which is results and performance, and statistics show that companies that have senior leadership that are diverse, whether it be gender, race, whatever, have higher profits.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's the fascinating piece about the stephanie that the research and this is academic research, so it's not even, you know, side surveys there's a lot of rigor behind academic research in the sense. And so, yes, research shows that the more diversity you have in leadership including boards or senior leadership Specifically for women, but also broader in diversity aspects, people of color, etc. That higher financial returns, better innovation, is just the results, the impact is very powerful and a lot of the issues that leaders care about. This is what fascinated me.
Speaker 2:I have worked in corporations where data driven decision making is always important. That drives everything, and so I've been in meetings where leaders will say where's the data? Where's the data? And in this case, what fascinated me is the data is there, and so why aren't we acting on it? And that really made me curious. I'm a big believer in leading with curiosity. I think that's the idea of meeting people where they're at, and when I ask the question, then we find out what's kind of below the surface on this. So it's not that the men don't agree with the data. What they were telling me is well, what does that mean for me? And so I think if we don't address that piece of it much. Like you said earlier. You know men have concerns about family. It's not that they are. Women are conditioned more to talk about these issues. Men are not, and so it really from my standpoint. How do we get men and women having this conversation together? Because men have something to gain from this conversation also.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know it's so easy for us to divide people on these easy to see categories. You know men, women and, let's face it, not all men are the same, not all women are the same. We all have different skill sets and so, yes, it's even hard to say it's not about hiring three men and three women. It's about hiring someone who you need skill X, skill Y, skill Z. Who is it? My brother is a senior executive and I remember talking to him about this topic, talking about pay equity, and he said you know, I don't even care. What I care about is getting the very best employee, and I'm going to pay the most I can for the very best employee. I am not limiting myself to men or women because he is driven by profits. Okay, so I was glad to hear that he was the only boy in a family of all women, so maybe that was part of it. We trained him well. But isn't that the truth? It doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman. If you want your company to be successful, you're going to hire the very most qualified person you can and you're going to pay them as much as you can.
Speaker 1:And let's talk about that for a second, another fascinating thing about your book. You talked about pay equity. Yes, okay, so again, maybe I've just been under a rock, but you talked about how the number changes. It was 70 cents on the dollar, 75 cents, 87 cents that women make to men. But you said, when we compare apples to apples, you know, let's look at the job types and let's get specific and let's really compare pay within the same career category between men and women. And you said that we're now at 99 cents to a dollar. Now, that's not to minimize the one cent. Okay, but that's a lot better than I thought it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that there's some really so, again this recent, because it's a nonfiction book.
Speaker 1:You probably saw all my citations, stephanie so that was Her bibliography is longer than the book. This is well researched.
Speaker 2:So thank you, but you know it's interesting, my son-in-law is one. Actually my oldest daughter's husband had questioned me on the fact. So I did a lot of research on this and so, on the average yes, still, you know, in the average we would look at 82 cents on the dollar. That's by pay scale research. It's not my research, but really, if we really can compare apples to apples so same education, same experience, you know doing that then it is 99 cents on the dollar. And so I do write a story in the book that you probably saw, stephanie, where you know that it. You know, even though that seems very small, it does make a difference in the scheme of life and people are wise to that.
Speaker 2:But I do think this whole idea of what you mentioned earlier about the idea of meritocracy, right, the idea of hiring the best rising to the top, the reason why I call it equity and not equality in the sense, because for me equality is you give everyone the same thing. So you know, stephanie, if you and I are different heights and we need to reach, you know, something on a shelf, I might need a smaller stool. You know I'm going to a taller one. You know we all need that different. If, when you talk about equity is, what do each of us need to reach that height more?
Speaker 2:And so I think, acknowledging, yes, what your brother said, that we want the best talent, I think there are some biases built in the system, you know that holds some groups back, and so just acknowledging that that exists Again, this is about conversations to raise that issue so they don't stay below the surface. But you're right, there's some of these little nuances about the issue that I think I'm excited about if we can change the narrative to what you said earlier. This is a gender issue, that men and women are both genders and genders become this beautiful mosaic. But you know this, I focus on this niche, and so how can we actually have that conversation so that we can really get the below the surface and make some change?
Speaker 1:Well, after your 30 conversations, I'm just curious. This is a lot of this is new information to me, but you have been in this space for a long time professionally, so were there new insights for you, like aha moments for you, or did you basically understand the issues and these interviews confirmed it and confirmed it for the reader?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, definitely some new insights. I again, because I was researching, I didn't, I didn't respond, but some of them actually made me laugh, you know, when I was listening to them, so as a woman going through this from the other side, but it was, but that's the part. Those are the parts that kind of that made me have the aha moment. First of all, this insight around it's not about the data, it's really that emotional issue and I did a lot of research on this. You see to that emotions drive decisions. As much as we like to think we're all data driven, that emotions don't do it. I think Bernay Brown has one of the best explanations I thought I heard when she said that most of us think that our our logical mind is in the driver's seat and our emotions are in the backseat. But it's reverse our emotions are on the driver's seat and our data logical mind in the trunk, and so I think just that I saw that play out. That was really interesting.
Speaker 2:I think also the men had good advice observations. One man said to me you know, he had three daughters and he said look, when I go to my real schools, how many men are in the schools influencing them. You know, I think that was an interesting aspect. I think the man that said he hadn't, he had not, he was so excited to talk about it. He actually had some really great advice that he wanted me to share. I think I probably saw that Stephanie the book that he actually had some advice during the Obama administration how women would help kind of elevate ideas for each other, and so what I realized is well, you share that, will you?
Speaker 1:elaborate because I love that part.
Speaker 2:So the idea is, I've been in a meeting to where sometimes what happens in a meeting room when you're the only female or food females the stereotype is a female will speak up, no one responds and then a male will say the same thing later and then people are like, oh, that's a great idea. So that's something that you know. It's stereotype, it happens. I've happened to me before everything. But what the idea was that the other women did during this story on the Obama administration is that when a woman had idea, another woman would say hey, stephanie, that was great. I did. You all hear Stephanie's idea. She really brought up this idea that perspective taken is important and by raising her sons she actually got to see a different side of a story.
Speaker 1:That was the way of really elevating that and supporting each other in the room and elevating those ideas and what I loved about that was that women being supportive of each other, rather than because there were used to be so few in the room. It's almost as if we were competing against each other. Yes, instead of saying you know what, let's be supportive of each other and let's not. You know, you don't have to sit quietly with your hands in your lap waiting for someone to ask your opinion. I have a quote. I have a book coming out and the publisher made some memes for social media with what they thought the best quotes in the book were, and one that they picked out was be obnoxious. See what happens.
Speaker 1:So you know, someone might say you're obnoxious because, you're a woman and you're, you know, saying what is clearly a compelling idea and someone else might say, wow, that's a great idea. Be obnoxious, see what happens you know I actually love that.
Speaker 2:I love that you know, I think, the idea of your right. There's this and I mentioned that to. There's a great Video and the two men that wrote a book on gender equity on their brother good guys, they include this in their book. This is great. Little pics are video called pearl and the idea is if people can look it up on youtube, but it's. It's a really compelling like eight minute short video just showing the idea of assimilation and how, even for women, sometimes you don't support other women to, and the men actually said that. One of the men said that to me. He said, hey, you guys don't help each other out either, and so I thought to your point earlier. Had I heard that before? Yes, but to hear them say it to me, I was like, oh, this is really interesting. We need to elevate that, because this is what the men are saying about how we're treating each other and that's not helpful either to the issue, right?
Speaker 1:So you talk about advice that men gave. So you come away from this and if you could just like summarize that, what would you say after all this research and all these interviews, what is the key issue? Slash problem here.
Speaker 2:Well, for me it's that the conversations are not happening. So the men were saying one on one how they felt, but they weren't feeling comfortable speaking up about it. Now there's some research that many women socialize differently, so I put that in there. But I think allowing a safe space that's where I love. When bob got said meet people where they're at, and so if indeed that that more men are not comfortable speaking about it, so they think it's not the issue, it's a women's issue, then I think creating a safe space for men to have that conversation.
Speaker 2:Now, stephanie, I know you and I talk about passion for the search. You studied women studies in college and I I have girlfriends who said to me oh my gosh, kori, why would you even say that? And I might point to them is look, men still occupy eighty percent of c-suite positions and political organizations and other there, so they're still very influential in these organizations. We need to partner with them because they're still influencing a lot of decisions and so at the end of the day, the one thing I'd say is how do we normalize men engaging in these conversations?
Speaker 2:Over the last chapter, I just put Comments in there about what they said so we can start normalizing, even if it's something that we might think is like how and they were. It wasn't that like? One guy told this great story that he actually his son, that young engineers had spoken about a female engineer or further, what she looked like in her jeans, and he stopped the meeting and he said, no, that's not appropriate. And I thought that's a small thing. But wow, that's not the stuff we see in the media, but that's so, that's so cool. How do we normalize that so other men can do this and see that that's normal behavior?
Speaker 1:and also there is an example of being at a restaurant and you know one of the guys was being a little inappropriate with the waitress and the man spoke up, but you know what it offended the man. You know there was a woman there, but even if there was no one there defended the man. We can't assume that it's only women who are offended by this kind of thing.
Speaker 1:And then you know there are men who are offended by this, so let's be respectful of each other's. This is a professional environment and the hard part is speaking up, because none of us want to be ostracized, not, you know, up there out of the group they're not going to be invited to the lunch of the golf or whatever it is, and that's the hard part.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that's why, in the middle of the book, I really spent a lot of time acknowledging that men do face challenges, too, that we don't discuss. So the idea is of toxic masculinity. Nothing masculinity is bad, it's just there's some aspects of deeply ingrained stereotypes that keep men in certain spaces, and so, you know, the suicide rates for men are much higher than women. There's just a lot of things we don't acknowledge that men face, and I think it's time for us to raise those issues so that pendulum swings. All right, so we are talking about this. How do we come together in a partnership?
Speaker 2:Leadership is gender neutral Leadership skills. Actually, women have a. You know, women and men have the same. Women have a slight edge in the latest research, but still, you know, this is a leadership issue. It's not a gender issue. It's not faced toward women's issue. It's really about how we can come together to make this world a better place, and I often say the world's problems are too big for us to focus on gender differences. How can we come together to make a much bigger boulder impact?
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. That is. That's a t-shirt or a coffee cup. How do we come together to make a boulder impact? It would be like. It would be like having a football team and saying we're only going to let half the players play.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:We need the whole team.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that's the opportunity we have and that's why I love the idea of pivotal people. I mean, you know, I'm humbled to be part of this pivotal people piece, but if we could just spark a different conversation. Much like you said earlier, I have two sons and two daughters. I want my sons to have a great opportunity in the workplace too someday, right, and you know they're starting on their journey, and so I think it's really for both men and women to benefit, so we all benefit.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting. You just said that and I have this handful of pivotal people I tell the story in my book, of people who, if they hadn't stepped into my story, my story would not have gone any. It wouldn't have happened the way it did, and it's equal between men and women. Well, that's interesting, it's handful, and half of them are women and half are men. That's interesting. I love that.
Speaker 2:I think if we observe that, I mean I love you sharing that too, because I think that's all along the lines of how do we pivot this conversation so that we are seeing there's benefits for all. And something you mentioned earlier research even shows that men are very disturbed by missing dinners. They miss a lot, and even some of the CEOs or retired CEOs I interviewed their biggest regret is how much time they spent away from family. You know, they grew their careers and they got to this successful point, but when they looked back they said my family came to sacrifice for that. And so I think that there's there's trade-offs that we don't even know that people are having unless we have these conversations.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I appreciate you writing the book and you know my sons are getting this book. Well thank you.
Speaker 2:And you're such a voracious reader that I was like, oh my gosh, I am thrilled and honored that you read the book.
Speaker 1:So thank you. Oh no, and I'll tell you, I read it. My husband and I just had a long drive across the country and I read it on the drive and he is held captive in the car. So about every other page, I'm saying and listen to this, and listen to this.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for spreading the word, Stephanie. I do appreciate that.
Speaker 1:My sons have heard that. Well, I think he learned a lot too, so I completely recommend this book. We're going to have all the information in the show notes that is available now. You can find it on Amazon. Men in the middle of conversations to gain momentum with gender equity silent majority by Corey Reid and this K-O-R-I and I want to thank you so much for taking your time and I look forward to hearing how this goes.
Speaker 2:Thank you, what a delightful conversation and I so appreciate your enthusiasm and energy and letting us have this conversation.
Speaker 1:I do too. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.