Pivotal People
Join us in conversations with inspiring people doing amazing things. Their insights and experiences help motivate all of us to find our purpose that fits with our abilities, gifts and life situation. Get a "behind the scenes" look at successful people making a difference in the world and benefit from their advice for the rest of us. Our guests include authors, artists, leaders, coaches, pastors, business people and speakers.
Pivotal People
Living a Purposeful Life of Integrity with Jack Mooring
Join us for a great conversation with Jack Mooring, founding pastor of Celebration of Life Church and former band member of the Grammy-nominated group Leland. Learn about Jack's transformative journey from the music stage to the pulpit, and his latest book, "Portrait of God: Rediscovering the Attributes of God Through the Stories of His People."
"Portrait of God" explored little-known stories about inspiring people of faith from history, which were fascinating. In this episode, we discussed their stories and how we can apply their wisdom in our lives today. Whether you're a seasoned believer or new to faith, you'll find inspiration in the enduring power of living with integrity.
Order "Portrait of God" here or find it at any online book retailer.
Connect with Jack on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jackmooring/
Order Stephanie's new book Imagine More: Do What You Love, Discover Your Potential
Learn more at StephanieNelson.com
Follow us on Instagram @stephanie_nelson_cm
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I'd like to welcome Jack Mooring to the Pivotal People podcast.
Speaker 1:Jack is a pastor at the Celebration of Life Church in Nashville he was actually a founding pastor and he is a former band member of the Grammy Award nominated group Leland.
Speaker 1:He's also the author of a brand new book called Portrait of God Rediscovering the Attributes of God Through the Stories of His People and, as you know, I've read the whole book, gosh 15 post-it notes I have underlined, I have marked Before we started recording. I told Jack you know, one of the things I love about this podcast is I get the blessing of discovering wonderful pastors and authors who are sharing God in the same message, different methodology, different stories. And every time I read these books as many as I read and as often as I talk about faith Jack has still given me a new view on this topic and I think he'll give anyone a new view, whether, and as you talked about in your introduction, whether you're a longtime believer and you just get a fresh look at God's attributes, or if you've never really bought into this in the first place. I think if you have a friend or family member who feels that way, they would appreciate this book too.
Speaker 2:So awesome. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 1:You know, before we launch into discussing this book, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your backstory, who you do life with, so we can get to know you?
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, once again, thanks for having me on. Stephanie, an honor to be on your podcast. And, yeah, I. So I'm a ministry kid.
Speaker 2:I grew up in the church. My parents were music ministers growing up. So my mom is a singer, my dad is a piano player and so grew up in ministry and in church. Uh, you know, we were felt like we were always at church for something growing up a choir practice or something. So really an amazing childhood, I mean. I'm so, so grateful for my upbringing.
Speaker 2:But, as you mentioned, I ended up starting a band with my brother. My brother was the lead singer of the band and he still tours now and still does it full time was 16. So we were kids and got to tour the world and it was just this amazing opportunity in my 20s to travel the world and minister and lead worship and see other cultures and see other sides of the church I hadn't experienced before as well. They were different than my denomination and upbringing. So very, very grateful for that.
Speaker 2:But all along the way I knew, you know, I was really called to pastor. I felt a really strong calling to that, to ministry, when I was at a very young age and so about 10 years ago, I came off the road. I left the band in order to pastor full time, so I've pastored in a few different roles, but we recently a few years ago we planted a church here in the Nashville area. So that's what we're currently doing, and so I'm pastoring and, of course, being a dad to five kids, along with my amazing wife, Whitney, and life is full and fun.
Speaker 1:Five kids. Okay, you can stop right there. I'm just curious what's the age range?
Speaker 2:So 14 to two, so it's a pretty big, pretty big gap.
Speaker 1:And I'm looking at him on Zoom folks. He looks well rested. I don't know what's up with that.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it's sovereign grace or something going on, because we're in the thick of it, that's for sure, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a lot of fun, I'm sure, talking about planting the church, let's talk about that for a second. I'm involved with a new church that's just being planted in my community and I'm amazed at how many you know. With any new building, there's always some controversy over traffic or people don't want it there, and it eventually was accepted. But one of the most common arguments was we have plenty of churches. Why do we need another church?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So I'd love to hear what really set your heart on fire about starting this church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Well, timothy Keller, who was you know, he was incredible a big influence in my life, his group, city to City, which is a church planting network. We're not a part of that network, but they definitely influenced us. You know, one of the things that he found in his research was that there's a and it seems obvious, but there's a direct correlation to the amount of churches in the city, to the amount of Christians in the city, and you kind of think, oh well, that makes sense. Well, you know, the more church plants there are in a city, the more people that there will be reached, because the average person statistically enjoys coming, going to a church of less than a few hundred people. You know, and and so if, if the only options in town are kind of really really large churches, that does limit the ability to reach people. You know, thanks, so thankful for, thankful for large churches. They're a blessing to the cities that they're in.
Speaker 2:But there is a lot of data that says the more churches there are in an area, the more engagement there will be with the law. In fact, if everybody got up on Sunday morning in Atlanta and wanted to go to church, there would not be enough room. But you're right, I think. But, but you're right, I definitely wrestled with that because we're in an area as well, in the Nashville area, that has a lot of great churches, but for us it was a personal calling from God. We knew that our unique identity, our unique callings and skill sets would be a blessing to this area, and so so we just wanted to be faithful and kind of take our spot on the wall here, you know, so to speak, and it's been good. It's a lot of work, as I'm sure you know, but it's worth it, and even for one person you know coming to Jesus.
Speaker 1:So that's what it's all about. That's wonderful. I've been involved in very large churches and very small churches. I've been involved in very large churches and very small churches, and I think this is just my theory, and who am I? But regardless of the size, I think the most important thing is that anyone who walked in would be noticed and welcomed.
Speaker 1:And that is harder to do in a larger congregation. We live in a very small town half the year and a very large city half the year. We live in a very small town half the year and a very large city half the year, and in the small town, whenever we go to that church, someone talks to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know and you leave.
Speaker 1:That's what I remember. I'm not sure I could tell you exactly what the sermon was about, but I can tell you about the kind older couple who made sure to talk to us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:We can do that. Our pastor at our very large church, andy Stanley, said a couple months ago that what breaks his heart from the stage when he sees people come in alone and no one talks to him when they leave alone because it's harder to notice. So now I'm that creepy lady who, when my husband and I go in, I'm like there's a person sitting by himself. We're going to sit there and we'll talk to him. I call it CIA. I'm CIA. It's for people who came in alone.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:And if more of us do that, regardless of the size of the church, that, I think, is what will make people feel comfortable about coming back.
Speaker 2:It's so true and, as I said earlier, you know large churches have so much to offer the city that you know that can do things that smaller churches can't do. They have more resources, which is really cool, but, yeah, the downside of it is, you know that people can fall through the cracks and so, yeah, I would encourage anybody. If you go to a larger church you know the CIA thing that is so great, yeah, you know. And even in a midsize church too, you know someone can walk in and get overlooked. So, yeah, it's, it's always so good to, especially today, because I think even sort of post 2020, you know there's, yeah, just people have found it, you know, maybe a little more difficult to interact face to face, and so anything we can do to encourage people and reach out to people, you know, I always say and I mentioned in the book, you know people have every person you meet has a Genesis 127 and John 316 value.
Speaker 2:So they were made in the image of God and God sent the son of God to die on the cross for them, and so every person you meet is incredibly valuable to God, and so just remember that, and the person you might be talking to might not be acting like it. They might be acting kind of crazy, but remember their value.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And so let's talk about your book, because what I talked about this is a book for people at every point in their faith, and so you talked the book is the Attributes of God. Of course, there are lots and lots of attributes. You just pull out some. But it reminds me of is it Tozer, who said what you think about when you think about God. Did I read that in your book? That's everything what you think about when you think about. God is the most important thing about you.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:About any of us. So I think your book does a really good job of bringing out who is this God, and some are really. You talk about God, god's love. There's an attribute the joy, grace, even suffering, all of these holiness. What do these words mean? And beyond what the words mean? So it's not just you know academic theology. Jack does a great job of telling stories. I love stories, we all love stories, interesting stories from people in church history to really illustrate these qualities, these attributes. So you're still going to have to buy the book. We're not going to tell you all the stories but, I would love to elaborate on a couple.
Speaker 1:I love CS Lewis and we all love, joy. But CS Lewis had a different way of describing what joy was very different than what society would say secular society. So could you elaborate on that and enlighten?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think you know that was fun to write about in that chapter because you know Lewis, his story of converting to Christianity.
Speaker 2:Joy was central to that and it was actually the thing that sort of crept up on him as this sort of like young atheist who was brilliant and could sort of argue his way, kind of bulldoze over Christians easily.
Speaker 2:He started to realize that all the good things in his life, even from a child, that just made him have that otherworldly feeling, you know, say you know, when you see a piece of art that just like, oh, it's beautiful, or you hear a song or read a book, he looked back on those moments and he found himself later on in life trying to recapture those moments of just rapture and that amazing feeling.
Speaker 2:And he would have a hard time recapturing it and he started to realize he's like maybe that the joy wasn't in those things, the things themselves. Maybe that joy was pointing to the ultimate source of joy, which is God himself, and that was key to his conversion. So he began to understand joy as this sort of pang, this longing deep inside of us for fulfillment, and that fulfillment can only be found in God. And so it was fun writing about that because you know you're right. Our culture sort of defines joy as kind of like, do whatever makes you happy and you know whatever is fun for you, and that's a very sort of shallow definition of joy. Really, joy comes ultimately from knowing God and that fulfillment of our longing for him.
Speaker 1:Yes, and one of the statements about CS Lewis that you made that I liked. But he gets beneath the shallow feeling of happiness, to the underlying motivation for life, which is it's not just about happiness, but fulfillment. It must have the stab, the pain, the inconsolable longing, and that's like a God magnet. Right? You're always trying to recapture what was that feeling. Well, you know it's about fulfillment. That's what God wants for us, right? I just read Jeremiah 29, 11 today. I mean, it's what he wants the signpost of joy. So each one of us has this inconsolable longing, and so some people might say, well, that's unhappiness. No, actually, that's what gets us looking around to search and find God.
Speaker 1:Let's flip it around.
Speaker 2:Totally. And CS Lewis enjoyed the good things of life. You know he really did. He enjoyed a good book. He enjoyed, you know, he was an Oxford professor, you know, and he began to understand that, although God created every good thing, you know that you encounter good art, you know, good literature, good food, right All of that ultimately comes from God, you know. It comes from his common grace throughout the world. But if we stop at those things themselves and try to just get our joy from those things, that's where it breaks down, and so we have to enjoy those things that's so fun, but realize that they're actually signposts pointing you to where ultimate joy is going to come from, and that is from God himself. So it's like just holding these things rightly, like you know, enjoy the good things that God gives, but realize that they're actually just markers pointing you to the ultimate source of joy.
Speaker 1:That is a 180 degree shift in my mind. When I was reading your book I was like, okay, I love that, and with good writers I love to read good writers, good thinkers I always read. I'm like, oh, I agree with that. I think that too, I never would have been able to articulate it or pull it out of my head, but thank you for finding that digging it out, there's another story.
Speaker 1:I would so love you to share this story and its attribute William and Catherine Booth, who founded the Salvation Army. Maybe every listener knows this story. I didn't yeah, so I'd love it if you could share that.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, you know, when I came across their story, you know several years ago, you know, I of course I knew about them but I'd never really understood the origin of the Salvation Army, and it's really amazing. You know, william Booth, he experienced poverty early on in his life and sort of felt the pressure to provide for his family at a young age, and so he actually began to work at a pawn shop in Nottingham Shire. But it was in that world that he began to encounter these people who were really, really suffering and really hurting. And you just realize he's like I have to do something. I can't just sit back and watch people suffer. Of course in Victorian England there was a massive problem with poverty, with orphans. Of course Dickens a lot of the themes of his book touch on these things, right? So this was the world that William Booth was living in. What year?
Speaker 1:was that? What time frame was that?
Speaker 2:Yes, I would have to look it up. Off the top of my head I can't remember. Excuse me, I can't remember the exact date. Off the top of my head, that's okay.
Speaker 2:So we see that he began to see the problems of the poor and say I've got to do something about it. He met his wife, catherine. They made this amazing commitment to one another. They said we're going to love God more than we love one another, which to the modern mind is like what? But that's what Christian marriage should be all about saying hey, of course I love my spouse, of course I love them, but the only way I can love them properly is to love God more than them. And so they did that and from that came this innovative ministry. You know I talk about this in the book, no-transcript. But she had this amazing gift to preach and William was like, hey, you go for it. So they were just this amazing team. And so I talk about this in the book. You know they had this perfect blend of preaching the gospel right Of you know, saving people's souls and in the spiritual problem, but also meeting practical needs. And they carried both of that really well.
Speaker 1:And what's like specifically, what kind of needs? You talked in the book about the match factory. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Tell that story, because that is like when so many of us look around the world and we say this is wrong, this is wrong, people shouldn't be treated this way and then we look away because we don't think we can do anything.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 1:This couple did.
Speaker 2:So that I don't know where you found that story, but show them. Oh yeah, no, it's a true story and it was a big problem in Victorian England it was. You know, there was these match factories that were using yellow phosphorus instead of red phosphorus. Yellow phosphorus was cheaper and so of course, these sort of the match bosses wanted to use that because they could make more money. And the problem was the yellow phosphorus was toxic to humans and it was in the working class at the time. It was causing tremendous physical problems and ailments. They actually called it bossy jaw. It was this horrible disease that literally people. Their skin would begin to deteriorate, their jaws would lock. I mean, it was a horrific ailment, a disease that would come from this and so it was the big employer is the only place to work.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. And the match bosses at the time they knew that you know, someone else left there's a line of other people willing to work because they were so desperate for money that they would take these jobs. And so William and Catherine solved this problem and they said you know what? We've got to do something about it. And so they bought their own factory. They raised the money, they started their own match factory. They used the more expensive red phosphorus and made healthier working conditions, sanitation, airflow, all kinds of things.
Speaker 2:And he started this campaign all throughout England and in fact it's somewhere here. I would show it to you. My friend got it for me. He bought, but actually I have a matchbox that says lights for darkest England. And William Booth, they reached out to all the shops around England and said, hey, sell these more expensive matches to help the poor. And it really became a revolution in England and the yellow phosphorus match bosses got shut down. And so it's just a cool story, because you know, I'm sure when William and Catherine Booth started their ministry, you know, neither of them sat down in their journal and said we are going to start a match factory one day. You know, they just saw the need and they filled it and I think that's just a big encouragement to us. As you mentioned, in our time.
Speaker 1:It's beautiful and in your conclusion you say this. So you and I can talk about this story and we think it sounds so wonderful and it is. But they had opposition. So the Salvation Army received no small amount of criticism and setbacks. At the beginning. They were hated by some of the most powerful people in the country. Here's why they were seen to be dangerously empowering the poor and the working classes. So they could have been beaten down, they could have given up, they could have gone to a different continent to help people.
Speaker 1:But history has shown that they founded an organization that has gone on to help millions of people around the world, and today they actually serve 23 million Americans a year through their services Homes for single mothers, prison ministries, homeless shelters, feeding programs, development work in the poorest nations on earth. And that was just a single couple who said we're going to love God more than each other, and they did it together, and that's why I love these books. I don't know, maybe everyone knew that story. I didn't know that story and I read a lot of books. So I want to thank you for sharing that, because you can immediately think of the application of that kind of viewpoint in any of our communities.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the cool thing about the Boots is that they had a vision that was bigger than just their lifetime. I think that's really important for our you know, for people in our time to understand is that I heard someone say I'm misquoting it, but he basically said you know good leaders. There are some good leaders who loom large over their movements. Right, there's these larger than like personalities and they create these movements and they sort of loom large over their movement. We would have said truly great leaders. Their movements loom large over them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I love that. You know the movement becomes bigger than the leader and it has a generational impact. And so, yeah, I mean you know it's grown and grown after their death. And still, I mean I was in, I was in Majorca recently for a trip doing some ministry stuff there with with a team, a lady in our church. She does missions stuff there. I met with a Belgian, belgian missionaries. They're they minister in Belgium and they just opened they opened up a home for Ukrainian refugees. Well, guess what? Their Salvation Army. It was so cool to meet them just last year and they're on the ground serving suffering people in Europe right now. And it's all just the heritage of the booth. So it's really cool.
Speaker 1:So when you see the red bucket outside of Walmart at Christmas, be sure to give money. The whole idea of ordinary people really doing extraordinary things. You said you know the fulfillment. I read a book recently talking about what truly makes people happy and our society tells oh well, maybe it's the fancy car, maybe it's the big house, and actually no, it is science, science and faith and everything. It all comes down to fulfillment being involved in something bigger than yourself. Yes, and you talked about something that outlasts your lifetime.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:That would be pretty cool, like your church, your church.
Speaker 2:That's right. You know exactly I think you know doing things. You know planting trees, right that we're not really going to live under the shade of those trees, but future generations will be able to live under the shade of them. And you know if you're a follower of Christ. That's what it's all about. You know, if anybody has an eternal perspective, it should be us. You know going like we're living for something greater than us, an eternal reward. You know we're going to stand before God one day and those rewards that we'll reap in heaven are so much better than sort of like temporary stuff here. It's right, right.
Speaker 1:I read something just this week that said you know we are so we strive. Our society strives to you know what be respected and admired by people. And for some people that means I need an expensive car, I need a nice house or I need to tell people you know my social media. I need to be respected and admired through this. And again the science showed that that actually doesn't make people respect and admire you and make some jealous. And he said but research has shown that the best way to be respected and admired is to be humble, kind and empathetic.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Doesn't cost a dime.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love how the Bible has been ahead of science for years, and it's so cool, isn't it? And now this scientific research is just confirming the word of God, which is amazing.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You think of the Sermon on the Mount? You think of Proverbs? I mean, it's teaching us to walk lives of wisdom. And, man, that's so cool. I didn't know about that study. Now that I think about it, I've experienced that in my life the people I respect the most, look up to the most.
Speaker 1:They're people who carry that, you know, humility and integrity Right and you don't have to change the oil or anything. It's great.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it doesn't depreciate in value the second you drive it off the lot. That's right.
Speaker 1:So we only touched on a couple of attributes, and there are so many more. I really I'm going to put the link to order your book in the show notes, but people don't usually go to show notes, so I'm just going to tell you. You can go to Amazon or any online bookseller. You like Portrait of God, jack Mooring, and we can also. How do we find you directly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm on social media at Jack Mooring. I'm on Instagram and on Twitter formerly Twitter X, now yeah, so I'm active on those, and so you can follow me at Jack Mooring on social media.
Speaker 1:And that's M-O-O-R-I-N-G.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So well, I want to thank you so much for taking your time. Let's see the guy who runs a church, writes books and has five kids and a wife to keep happy. So I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you very much, and so I. My wife is, is a, is a superhero, she's incredible.
Speaker 1:So I would. I would have to agree. Thanks so much.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Bless you. Thank you, Stephanie.
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