Pivotal People
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Pivotal People
Your Next Decision Could Change Everything
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Justin and Tricia Davis share their powerful insights on how one choice can transform relationships and break harmful cycles that hold us back.
• Founders of Refine Us Ministries, focused on rebuilding healthy marriages since 2012
• Authors of "One Choice Away from Change" and other relationship books
• Transformation starts with a single choice, not figuring everything out at once
• Rock bottom provides a solid surface to stand and make new choices
• Heart transformation differs from behavior modification - it's deeper and lasting
• Guilt vs shame: conviction says what you did is wrong; shame says you are wrong
• Brokenness isn't punishment but preparation for becoming a different person
• Regret can be leveraged to create a different future rather than dwelling on the past
• Forgiveness is a process, not a one-time event
• Forgiveness is free, but trust must be earned
• Boundaries are loving acts, not rejection
• Forgiveness may not restore relationships but always restores your heart
What choice could you make today that would cause your future self to write you a thank-you letter?
Connect with Justin and Trisha at Refine Us Ministries
https://www.refineus.org/
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I'd like to welcome Justin and Tricia Davis to the Pivotal People podcast today . You're going to love to hear from this couple . I know their message will be pivotal to you . Let me tell you who they are . They're both pastors , they're speakers and they're founders of Refine Us Ministries . And Refine Us Ministries has focused on rebuilding
Meeting Justin and Tricia Davis
Speaker 1and restoring healthy marriages since 2012 , 13 years . So they know what they're doing . They have co-authored a few books on relationships and one was on the USA Today bestseller list . So listen , pay attention .
Speaker 1The book we're talking about today . I have read twice . It is so good . It is called One Choice Away from Change . Break the cycles that hurt your relationships and hold you back . And when we're talking about relationships , we're talking about marriages , yes , but every relationship in our life . This message applies to any age , any stage of your life , any decision you're making . So I'm super excited they're here . They teach courses , they teach conferences and they also do coaching for people . So if you want to reach them , you can reach them on Refinest Ministries . They do coaching for individuals , couples and even churches . So welcome to the podcast . It's great to have you two here .
Speaker 2Thank you so much . That's like the best introduction we've ever had .
Speaker 3My cheeks are from smiling and we just started . That was just so kind and lovely .
Speaker 2I want to meet this couple .
Speaker 3They sound incredible .
Speaker 1Well , I'll tell you what authenticity is probably their brand . Okay , so that's what I love . This is not a couple who is giving us platitudes on how to have healthy relationships . This is the couple who , I kind of view , is being honest about having been through your own issues , as we all have . I'm 61 . I don't think you can get to this age without having had a lot of issues . The issues , it's what choice we make when we go through that . So let's start by talking about the title of this book and what it really means One choice away from change . How did you get to that and what prompted your idea of writing a book about that ?
Speaker 2Well , one of the things that we recognized in our own journey and as we interact with individuals and with couples is everybody wants change . Everybody desires transformation in their relationships . A lot of us feel overwhelmed or discouraged or even defeated by all that entails pursuing that change . Sometimes it's internal we can't get out of our own way , and sometimes it's external . We have relationships that , no matter how hard we try , they just don't seem to ever improve . So the heart of the book really is to take the weight
One Choice Away From Change
Speaker 2off of the reader and say hey , you don't have to have it all figured out . If you make one choice , that choice could lead you to a different place than you're in right now . You don't have to have all the steps predicted or figured out in order to have transformation in your life .
Speaker 1I think one part of your book . I love this . We're not talking about behavior modification , we're talking about heart transformation and I read that and I'd love for you to elaborate on that . But I read that as releasing stress and responsibility from me having to every day change whatever my nature is , instead of saying , wait a minute , could I just be transformed and you talked about . You know , so many times we pray for the circumstances in our life to be changed , when really , how about if our heart was changed ? So talk about what you mean when you say one choice away from change . Can you give some examples ?
Speaker 3It's so interesting , stephanie , that you said you know , being 60 , you're going to run into some issues . And for Justin and I , we met in Bible college and fell in love with each other and fell in love with this idea we could change the world through ministry . But the one choice and the only choice we thought we would have to make is just love God and then you'll live an up and to the right life . And we kind of were in the first couple of years of our marriage . In the first 10 years we had three kids and we planted a church , and we're kind of old people . So it's like when we were planning a church , people don't even know what is a church plant . Is an actual plant like that has a church , like what is it ? And so we were doing all of these things .
Speaker 3And then , when our ministry and marriage imploded in 2005 , it was like wait , I thought you only had to make one choice . Wait , I thought you only had to make one choice . And I think for a lot of us we get to this place where oftentimes we get stuck because we believe that one decision will last a lifetime , not having to make any other decisions , but what we have learned through our story and now you know , 20 years later is that one choice is the beginning to be able to break cycles that make you feel stuck . It's probably the hardest and the bravest step you'll have to make . It's just that one step can change a total direction for your life , and Justin and I saw that in our marriage .
Speaker 3You know , when our marriage imploded , we lost everything . You know , it was kind of a Justin confessed to an extramarital affair and it was like overnight we lost everything , including our identities , and it was like when you're stripped from everything and you hit rock bottom , it's very lonely and you feel like rock bottom . There's no more choices to be made . But what we recognize is the gift of rock bottom is that it's still solid surface to stand , and so the one choice we had to make was to stand , but now stand in a different understanding of God that it wasn't about being perfect and following everything just the right way to have an up and right life , so that the older we get , the better it becomes , but rather standing on the promise of who we are in Christ , that no matter if we are a rock bottom or we're on the mountaintop , every time we choose just one choice towards who God calls us to be . It changes our perspective on the hardships and the messiness of life .
Speaker 1Well , you talked about how you each responded and I had to read Trisha . They divided writing this book , so Trisha had a part where she was talking about how they responded to that issue in their life . And it could be any issue . We've all had issues , you know . We've all had issues that we thought weren't going to happen to us , whether it's with our kids or with friends or with family or with marriages , and we have different ways . We have choices about how to respond , and you know you talked about how you responded , tricia , by turning to God . You know you could have gone a different direction . You could have been resentful and angry , and what I loved is how you described that Justin embraced brokenness instead of hiding from brokenness , and that hit me in so many different ways . I mean , how many times do we ? We don't , we don't want to face brokenness , and what happens when we face brokenness ? That's the rock bottom you're talking about . Can you talk about that ? What happens when you face brokenness and what came out of that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , one of the things that we've recognized is is , most of us we want change , but we don't want the pain that comes with transformation , right , and so we equate pain with going a wrong direction . But it's actually redemptive pain that brings the greatest transformation . And that aspect of brokenness
Embracing Brokenness vs. Hiding
Speaker 2is leaning in and saying okay , god , maybe what you're doing in my life isn't punishment , it's preparation , or maybe it's not punishment , you're not , you're not bringing , you know , difficulty on me . You're walking with me through this difficulty so I can be a different person on the other side . And that gets back to , you know , your question about behavior modification or heart transformation , and that that behavior modification is us trying to manage it , us trying to control it . Transformation , and that behavior modification is us trying to manage it , us trying to control it , us trying to take the path of least resistance .
Speaker 2But if you think about the different areas of your life , or even your relationship with God , if you have a relationship with God , most of the time the greatest seasons of transformation don't come through comfort . They come through hardship or difficulty or disappointment or betrayal and being willing to just allow , you know , lamentations . Chapter three talks about God breaking our teeth with gravel . It's not a very I like . I like John , chapter three , verse 16 , not Lamentations chapter three , verse 16, . But it's this idea of God breaking us , not so he can punish us , but so that he can remake us , and leaning into that and inviting that oftentimes is the most intimidating but also the most rewarding choice we can make .
Speaker 1Your second book was called what is it ?
Speaker 2Being Real is Greater Than being Perfect .
Speaker 1Being Real is Greater . Being real is greater than being perfect . Being real is greater than being perfect . And so , as a minister , as a pastor , as an author your experience probably and any of us who've had difficult experiences , you can either have , you have a choice you can hide it and develop shame around it , or you can face it and , like you said , what is it ? Godly sorrow leads to repentance , you know . And then there's a healthy outcome of that and you , as a result , are probably far more compassionate to people who have challenges in all areas of the life , right these kinds . I think these trials , the trials I've had , have made me far less judgmental and far more compassionate , and I would just so much rather be like that than what I you know . Previous version .
Speaker 1When I was younger and had all the answers .
Speaker 2Well , we assume that we're the only people going through whatever we're going through and one of the tenets of the book is we're all going through the same stuff , we all deal with the same things , you're not alone and you're not crazy is we're all going through the same stuff , we all deal with the same things , you're not alone and you're not crazy . And just recognizing that shame tries to isolate us . Where God wants to bring that isolation out into the light and that's where that shame loses its power against us is when we bring it out into the light .
Speaker 1You did a good job of this in the book and a lot of people already know this , but could you just hit on the difference between guilt and shame for anyone listening so they understand what we're talking about ?
Speaker 2Yeah , and this is not unique to me or original . With me , a lot of this comes I quote in the book Brene Brown , who's a clinical researcher on the topic of shame , so she's way more of a pro than me . But in my layman's terms I would say that conviction is from the Holy Spirit and it's this voice inside of us that says what am I ? What I'm doing is wrong and I need to go a different direction . Like this is against God's best for my life .
Speaker 2Shame says you are wrong and you're the sum of your mistakes and you're never going to be able to change . And everybody knows that you're a failure and you're always going to be a failure . Rather than defining ourselves by who we are in Christ and the aspect that we do fail , we see ourselves as a failure and almost unlovable to God , and we know that God loves us in our head , but we allow shame to overcome that knowledge and how we feel about ourselves . And so the hope of that chapter is really to set the reader free from the power of shame and really open us up to , okay , conviction is a good thing , right , that's how we realign our hearts with God's heart and with the heart of healthy relationships but shame . There's nothing healthy that comes out of shame .
Speaker 1And it's so common . So then you kind of veered and connected the dots for me where you talked about regret . I thought this was interesting . The most common human emotion is love , but the second most common human emotion is regret . So this is just my interpretation . We take that shame , we totally internalize it , we hide it , we smooth it over , but we're always carrying this regret . We're that shame , we totally internalize it , we hide it , we smooth it over , but we're always carrying this regret . We're always carrying this regret , and your whole book is saying wait a second , you have a choice , and so what is the choice I'm going to make right now ? You said you can't change your past , you can't change your parents , you can't change your experiences , but we can change our future if we make this choice . So let's start with you . Know , anyone listening right now a regret has come to mind , maybe a regret that you're still holding on to . So , for the person listening who's holding on to a regret , what do we do right now ? How do we take the direction that this book suggests ?
Speaker 2Well , regret is a unique emotion , because what regret says is not I wish things would have been differently , been different . Regret says things would have been different had I chose something else . And so , acknowledging that regret and realizing that there is nothing you can do to change it , but there is something you can do to not repeat it it , but there is something you can do to not repeat it . And so the hope of the book , and specifically that section , is to allow the reader to realize that time or energy spent on our regrets is not going to be redemptive energy , but surrendering those regrets to Christ , allowing Him then to use the things that we have made mistakes in to enable us to , one , not repeat them and , two , be different people because of the wisdom that we've gained from those experiences , is the hope of leveraging our regrets to have a different future .
Speaker 1And so the other
Understanding Guilt vs. Shame
Speaker 1piece that I think for personally , has had a real impact on being able to let go of regrets and then hopefully move on to . You know , positive new transformed me is the idea , and Tricia is really known as an expert on the topic of forgiveness . Now she is known as an expert on the topic of forgiveness . She does not call herself an expert on the topic of forgiveness . She does not call herself an expert on the topic of forgiveness . In fact , she's very kind of self-deprecating about this . But when I read her chapter on the five misconceptions of forgiveness I was like wow , it made me see it in a different way . And trust me , folks , I have read so many things about forgiveness . Would you mind elaborating , tricia , on this whole topic of forgiveness for others , also , I'm sure , for ourselves ?
Speaker 3You and Justin have already laid the foundation how we all feel of whether it's through regret or through shame or whatever I call it like the shower moment . It's a thing that's like when you're in the shower , it just sits with you . It's like it's when you're in the car , the car line or at the shower moment . It's a thing that's like when you're in the shower , it just sits with you . It's like it's when you're in the car , the car line or at the bank waiting . It's like that thought comes to you and it may . It brings up either unhealthy emotions , and so we get to this crossroads that we know we want to choose something different , but we don't know what the choice is , and so we lean on our own understanding to think okay , I just need to power through this . I need to get over this . Why do I keep thinking about it ? It gets really frustrating , and what we've learned and what we hope to share with the listener and the reader is we have to begin by embracing the truth of where we are , and truth is where we begin to walk into forgiveness , because if we're not truthful of where we're at , then what we bring and what we think we need to forgive , whether it's ourselves or to offer that forgiveness to somebody else . It's kind of half baked , because we've morphed it into what we think they either need or what we feel most comfortable with . And so it's that brutal honesty to say gosh . That regret is devastating me . I know I can't change it , everybody keeps telling me that , but why am I sitting here with it still ? And forgiveness is the greatest gift , because it's the beginning process of choosing something different .
Speaker 3The problem is is that we first hit this barrier of sitting with it and then the next barrier is well then , what is forgiveness ? And a lot of these misconceptions are just forgive and forget , which fits that model , and you're like I've been trying to forgive and forget . One more person says that to me I'm going to come unglued , and it's true . It's like even when we think we have the good tools , they're not working . And so what I've had to learn in my own life and I think reigns true for all of us is that forgiveness is a process , and for many of us , we've been taught the misconception that forgiveness is one and done , and so if you are struggling after you've you know quote unquote forgiven , you probably didn't do it right and God's probably disappointed in you because you're still hanging on to that , you know . But forgiveness is a process and for some of our wounds it's a daily process of offering forgiveness or receiving forgiveness .
Speaker 3But this is where it's different between behavior modification and heart transformation . It's instead of stewing over what you can't change , the process of forgiveness allows you to see that regret in a different way , that you can't change it , but you can accept what it is , that you can leave it in the past and not bring it to your present or to your future , and so it becomes a part of your story . I call it like it's the difference between rose colored glasses , which are my favorite glasses to wear who does not want rose colored glasses ? And then life feels shattered and you just feel like , oh , everything's going to look broken forever and ever . But in the process of forgiveness and realizing it's not one and done and you may have to offer it , you may feel like they don't deserve forgiveness and that's part of your process .
Speaker 3But it's this remembering that the ground is level at the foot of the cross , while we are all sinners , christ died for us and that brings a belonging to us
The Process of Forgiveness
Speaker 3in this process of forgiveness that we realize that our shattered glasses actually can become a prism of just beauty , to see God love you so well in the midst of your own mistakes , or this beauty that only through power of Christ he allows us to offer that forgiveness . And I can't explain it because it's from God , but I do know from psychological terms forgiveness it's restorative , holistically , physically , emotionally and spiritually , and then you don't have to work for it . It's not a checkmark . Forgiveness becomes a lifestyle of letting go , but letting go with purpose . That brings healing , not letting go just to get over . And so it changes your mindset on how to accept those regrets but move forward in a true hope and a true joy . That James says . That goes beyond our circumstances .
Speaker 1And that's what struck me in your whole chapter about this is the idea that you talked about the healing for ourselves . I'm self-interested , so that gets my attention . I have people I can't forgive , or I think I say I do and then I don't , and I'm like you know , when we hold on to that , it actually and you have medical studies quoted in here when we hold on to that , it actually produces negative stuff in our bodies . You know the anxiety and the negative cortisol and all of that stuff that's not helping us and science has shown that when we release that , if we really do , and the healing is , as you said , holistically healthy , it is physically healthy for us as well as emotionally and mentally and spiritually . And I love how you say this is a process you know every day , every day until , look at it and you know , as I always say , and my gosh , who am I to judge ? Who am ?
Speaker 3I to judge .
Speaker 1I've got my stuff . I love that . Say it again the ground is level at the foot of the cross .
Speaker 3Yeah , I've never heard that before I love it . When you think of that . I think the one misconception that I talk about that , even if we understand what we just stated about forgiveness , is that we equate forgiveness with trust and so we put ourselves in proximity of people that are unhealthy . We don't set up boundaries because we've misunderstood what love and forgiveness is . But I believe that boundaries which I know is kind of a buzzword Some , as a listener , you may have just rolled your eyes at me and it's okay , but hang here with me , you know , but boundaries is the most lavish act of love that you could give to somebody , because it's saying I care enough about you to put time and attention in how I interact with you .
Speaker 3If I didn't care then I would just peace out and just shut you out of my life . And the gift of forgiveness is forgiveness doesn't equate trust , but forgiveness is the starting point because forgiveness is what restores your heart . Forgiveness is the starting point because forgiveness is what restores your heart , Forgiveness is what allows you to think clearly , and so we share in the book . You know a story of you know , a couple of years ago , Justin and I both finding out in the same week that our dads weren't our dads . You heard that right , I want to say we're not related . So that's our big thing that we're excited about .
Speaker 3Our dad is not the same person , not related , so that's our big thing that we're excited about . Our dad is not the same person , but I share that . I had done all of this work about forgiveness and written a book about it and go around the country speaking about it , and then it was like what happened the deceit and the struggle that we found ourselves back in with our own moms . It was like a litmus test of going okay in
Forgiveness vs. Trust
Speaker 3everything that I've been talking about in these new shattered frames . Is it really real ? And it wasn't an overnight process , but that happened in 2021 . And now here in 2025 , the process of forgiveness .
Speaker 3It doesn't equate trust , but it puts you on a path of a life of no regrets and we have learned to walk in forgiveness daily . And forgiveness changes your view to see a person beyond their mistakes and see them as a child of God . It's helped us show grace where graces need to be given . It's helped us show grace where graces need to be given . It's helped us curate boundaries where boundaries need to be created . But with forgiveness , you can offer it regardless of how a person responds . With trust , it's a two-way street and so oftentimes we feel like we're getting forgiveness wrong because it's not been reciprocated or it hasn't brought transformation , and so we just stop doing it . But forgiveness is a gift that just keeps on giving . It may not always restore a relationship , but it always restores your heart .
Speaker 1Yeah , always restores your heart and you said that over and over again in the book . I highlighted it every time I came across it and I also like giving us all permission and really showing us the difference between forgiveness and trust . You said forgiveness is free , trust is earned . People who have betrayed us . We're not required to trust them , but , like you said , by forgiving and boundaries . That is , bob Goff , the author calls it loving people from a distance . Boundaries are actually , as you said , kind , because an alternative is being mean . Right , you could be mean , you could voice your no . You're being kind , you're not being mean , you're not saying mean things you can't take back . You're setting up a healthy boundary and sometimes that's awkward . I've had to do it , but I've done it gradually . You know , in some case , in doing it gradually and I'm also in the South where I don't mean to generalize in anyone listening , but we really don't like to confront people , so we just smooth things over , yeah , well .
Speaker 2I think I think you know you mentioned that you attend North Point . I think I heard Andy Stanley say one time forgive freely and trust slowly .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2That's a good motto to live by Forgive freely , trust slowly .
Speaker 1We have only scratched the surface of this great book . I always tell people on this podcast , tell listeners that you've got to get this book . I always read the whole book . I always tell people on this podcast tell listeners that you've got to get this book . I always read the whole book . I told you I read this one twice . This is a gift book . This is a book you give the people you love . It's so simple . And you've got to buy this book because we didn't talk enough about the whole idea .
Speaker 1And here's my question . I'm going to ask the listener what is the choice you could make today in your life , whether it's forgiving someone or starting to do something or letting go of it ? What is the choice you could make today where your future self , seven years from now , would write you a thank you letter ? What would your life look like seven years from now if you made that choice ? And I like that , our future self . Let's not weigh the next seven years down with the same old , tired regret . We're just losing time . And you know I keep saying my age , but 61 , you don't have a lot of time to waste . You just got to move on to the positive stuff . Thank you so much folks . You can find them at refineusorg . Right , refine Us Ministries is at refineusorg . I will have that in the show notes . You can certainly go to Amazon and find Justin and Tricia Davis . One Choice Away from Change . That is a choice you could make today that would impact your future possibly . Thank you so much for your time . It's been great talking to you .
Speaker 2Thank you for having us .
Speaker 1Yes , thank you so much .
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