Pivotal People
Join us in conversations with inspiring people doing amazing things. Their insights and experiences help motivate all of us to find our purpose that fits with our abilities, gifts and life situation. Get a "behind the scenes" look at successful people making a difference in the world and benefit from their advice for the rest of us. Our guests include authors, artists, leaders, coaches, pastors, business people and speakers.
Pivotal People
Your Next Decision Could Change Everything
Justin and Tricia Davis share their powerful insights on how one choice can transform relationships and break harmful cycles that hold us back.
• Founders of Refine Us Ministries, focused on rebuilding healthy marriages since 2012
• Authors of "One Choice Away from Change" and other relationship books
• Transformation starts with a single choice, not figuring everything out at once
• Rock bottom provides a solid surface to stand and make new choices
• Heart transformation differs from behavior modification - it's deeper and lasting
• Guilt vs shame: conviction says what you did is wrong; shame says you are wrong
• Brokenness isn't punishment but preparation for becoming a different person
• Regret can be leveraged to create a different future rather than dwelling on the past
• Forgiveness is a process, not a one-time event
• Forgiveness is free, but trust must be earned
• Boundaries are loving acts, not rejection
• Forgiveness may not restore relationships but always restores your heart
What choice could you make today that would cause your future self to write you a thank-you letter?
Connect with Justin and Trisha at Refine Us Ministries
https://www.refineus.org/
Order Stephanie's new book Imagine More: Do What You Love, Discover Your Potential
Learn more at StephanieNelson.com
Follow us on Instagram @stephanie_nelson_cm
Follow us on Facebook at CouponMom
I'd like to welcome Justin and Tricia Davis to the Pivotal People podcast today. You're going to love to hear from this couple. I know their message will be pivotal to you. Let me tell you who they are. They're both pastors, they're speakers and they're founders of Refine Us Ministries. And Refine Us Ministries has focused on rebuilding and restoring healthy marriages since 2012, 13 years. So they know what they're doing. They have co-authored a few books on relationships and one was on the USA Today bestseller list. So listen, pay attention.
Speaker 1:The book we're talking about today. I have read twice. It is so good. It is called One Choice Away from Change. Break the cycles that hurt your relationships and hold you back. And when we're talking about relationships, we're talking about marriages, yes, but every relationship in our life. This message applies to any age, any stage of your life, any decision you're making. So I'm super excited they're here. They teach courses, they teach conferences and they also do coaching for people. So if you want to reach them, you can reach them on Refinest Ministries. They do coaching for individuals, couples and even churches. So welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you two here.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. That's like the best introduction we've ever had.
Speaker 3:My cheeks are from smiling and we just started. That was just so kind and lovely.
Speaker 2:I want to meet this couple.
Speaker 3:They sound incredible.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you what authenticity is probably their brand. Okay, so that's what I love. This is not a couple who is giving us platitudes on how to have healthy relationships. This is the couple who, I kind of view, is being honest about having been through your own issues, as we all have. I'm 61. I don't think you can get to this age without having had a lot of issues. The issues, it's what choice we make when we go through that. So let's start by talking about the title of this book and what it really means One choice away from change. How did you get to that and what prompted your idea of writing a book about that?
Speaker 2:Well, one of the things that we recognized in our own journey and as we interact with individuals and with couples is everybody wants change. Everybody desires transformation in their relationships. A lot of us feel overwhelmed or discouraged or even defeated by all that entails pursuing that change. Sometimes it's internal we can't get out of our own way, and sometimes it's external. We have relationships that, no matter how hard we try, they just don't seem to ever improve. So the heart of the book really is to take the weight off of the reader and say hey, you don't have to have it all figured out. If you make one choice, that choice could lead you to a different place than you're in right now. You don't have to have all the steps predicted or figured out in order to have transformation in your life.
Speaker 1:I think one part of your book. I love this. We're not talking about behavior modification, we're talking about heart transformation and I read that and I'd love for you to elaborate on that. But I read that as releasing stress and responsibility from me having to every day change whatever my nature is, instead of saying, wait a minute, could I just be transformed and you talked about. You know, so many times we pray for the circumstances in our life to be changed, when really, how about if our heart was changed? So talk about what you mean when you say one choice away from change. Can you give some examples?
Speaker 3:It's so interesting, stephanie, that you said you know, being 60, you're going to run into some issues. And for Justin and I, we met in Bible college and fell in love with each other and fell in love with this idea we could change the world through ministry. But the one choice and the only choice we thought we would have to make is just love God and then you'll live an up and to the right life. And we kind of were in the first couple of years of our marriage. In the first 10 years we had three kids and we planted a church, and we're kind of old people. So it's like when we were planning a church, people don't even know what is a church plant. Is an actual plant like that has a church, like what is it? And so we were doing all of these things.
Speaker 3:And then, when our ministry and marriage imploded in 2005, it was like wait, I thought you only had to make one choice. Wait, I thought you only had to make one choice. And I think for a lot of us we get to this place where oftentimes we get stuck because we believe that one decision will last a lifetime, not having to make any other decisions, but what we have learned through our story and now you know, 20 years later is that one choice is the beginning to be able to break cycles that make you feel stuck. It's probably the hardest and the bravest step you'll have to make. It's just that one step can change a total direction for your life, and Justin and I saw that in our marriage.
Speaker 3:You know, when our marriage imploded, we lost everything. You know, it was kind of a Justin confessed to an extramarital affair and it was like overnight we lost everything, including our identities, and it was like when you're stripped from everything and you hit rock bottom, it's very lonely and you feel like rock bottom. There's no more choices to be made. But what we recognize is the gift of rock bottom is that it's still solid surface to stand, and so the one choice we had to make was to stand, but now stand in a different understanding of God that it wasn't about being perfect and following everything just the right way to have an up and right life, so that the older we get, the better it becomes, but rather standing on the promise of who we are in Christ, that no matter if we are a rock bottom or we're on the mountaintop, every time we choose just one choice towards who God calls us to be. It changes our perspective on the hardships and the messiness of life.
Speaker 1:Well, you talked about how you each responded and I had to read Trisha. They divided writing this book, so Trisha had a part where she was talking about how they responded to that issue in their life. And it could be any issue. We've all had issues, you know. We've all had issues that we thought weren't going to happen to us, whether it's with our kids or with friends or with family or with marriages, and we have different ways. We have choices about how to respond, and you know you talked about how you responded, tricia, by turning to God. You know you could have gone a different direction. You could have been resentful and angry, and what I loved is how you described that Justin embraced brokenness instead of hiding from brokenness, and that hit me in so many different ways. I mean, how many times do we? We don't, we don't want to face brokenness, and what happens when we face brokenness? That's the rock bottom you're talking about. Can you talk about that? What happens when you face brokenness and what came out of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the things that we've recognized is is, most of us we want change, but we don't want the pain that comes with transformation, right, and so we equate pain with going a wrong direction. But it's actually redemptive pain that brings the greatest transformation. And that aspect of brokenness is leaning in and saying okay, god, maybe what you're doing in my life isn't punishment, it's preparation, or maybe it's not punishment, you're not, you're not bringing, you know, difficulty on me. You're walking with me through this difficulty so I can be a different person on the other side. And that gets back to, you know, your question about behavior modification or heart transformation, and that that behavior modification is us trying to manage it, us trying to control it. Transformation, and that behavior modification is us trying to manage it, us trying to control it, us trying to take the path of least resistance.
Speaker 2:But if you think about the different areas of your life, or even your relationship with God, if you have a relationship with God, most of the time the greatest seasons of transformation don't come through comfort. They come through hardship or difficulty or disappointment or betrayal and being willing to just allow, you know, lamentations. Chapter three talks about God breaking our teeth with gravel. It's not a very I like. I like John, chapter three, verse 16, not Lamentations chapter three, verse 16,. But it's this idea of God breaking us, not so he can punish us, but so that he can remake us, and leaning into that and inviting that oftentimes is the most intimidating but also the most rewarding choice we can make.
Speaker 1:Your second book was called what is it?
Speaker 2:Being Real is Greater Than being Perfect.
Speaker 1:Being Real is Greater. Being real is greater than being perfect. Being real is greater than being perfect. And so, as a minister, as a pastor, as an author your experience probably and any of us who've had difficult experiences, you can either have, you have a choice you can hide it and develop shame around it, or you can face it and, like you said, what is it? Godly sorrow leads to repentance, you know. And then there's a healthy outcome of that and you, as a result, are probably far more compassionate to people who have challenges in all areas of the life, right these kinds. I think these trials, the trials I've had, have made me far less judgmental and far more compassionate, and I would just so much rather be like that than what I you know. Previous version.
Speaker 1:When I was younger and had all the answers.
Speaker 2:Well, we assume that we're the only people going through whatever we're going through and one of the tenets of the book is we're all going through the same stuff, we all deal with the same things, you're not alone and you're not crazy is we're all going through the same stuff, we all deal with the same things, you're not alone and you're not crazy. And just recognizing that shame tries to isolate us. Where God wants to bring that isolation out into the light and that's where that shame loses its power against us is when we bring it out into the light.
Speaker 1:You did a good job of this in the book and a lot of people already know this, but could you just hit on the difference between guilt and shame for anyone listening so they understand what we're talking about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is not unique to me or original. With me, a lot of this comes I quote in the book Brene Brown, who's a clinical researcher on the topic of shame, so she's way more of a pro than me. But in my layman's terms I would say that conviction is from the Holy Spirit and it's this voice inside of us that says what am I? What I'm doing is wrong and I need to go a different direction. Like this is against God's best for my life.
Speaker 2:Shame says you are wrong and you're the sum of your mistakes and you're never going to be able to change. And everybody knows that you're a failure and you're always going to be a failure. Rather than defining ourselves by who we are in Christ and the aspect that we do fail, we see ourselves as a failure and almost unlovable to God, and we know that God loves us in our head, but we allow shame to overcome that knowledge and how we feel about ourselves. And so the hope of that chapter is really to set the reader free from the power of shame and really open us up to, okay, conviction is a good thing, right, that's how we realign our hearts with God's heart and with the heart of healthy relationships but shame. There's nothing healthy that comes out of shame.
Speaker 1:And it's so common. So then you kind of veered and connected the dots for me where you talked about regret. I thought this was interesting. The most common human emotion is love, but the second most common human emotion is regret. So this is just my interpretation. We take that shame, we totally internalize it, we hide it, we smooth it over, but we're always carrying this regret. We're that shame, we totally internalize it, we hide it, we smooth it over, but we're always carrying this regret. We're always carrying this regret, and your whole book is saying wait a second, you have a choice, and so what is the choice I'm going to make right now? You said you can't change your past, you can't change your parents, you can't change your experiences, but we can change our future if we make this choice. So let's start with you. Know, anyone listening right now a regret has come to mind, maybe a regret that you're still holding on to. So, for the person listening who's holding on to a regret, what do we do right now? How do we take the direction that this book suggests?
Speaker 2:Well, regret is a unique emotion, because what regret says is not I wish things would have been differently, been different. Regret says things would have been different had I chose something else. And so, acknowledging that regret and realizing that there is nothing you can do to change it, but there is something you can do to not repeat it it, but there is something you can do to not repeat it. And so the hope of the book, and specifically that section, is to allow the reader to realize that time or energy spent on our regrets is not going to be redemptive energy, but surrendering those regrets to Christ, allowing Him then to use the things that we have made mistakes in to enable us to, one, not repeat them and, two, be different people because of the wisdom that we've gained from those experiences, is the hope of leveraging our regrets to have a different future.
Speaker 1:And so the other piece that I think for personally, has had a real impact on being able to let go of regrets and then hopefully move on to. You know, positive new transformed me is the idea, and Tricia is really known as an expert on the topic of forgiveness. Now she is known as an expert on the topic of forgiveness. She does not call herself an expert on the topic of forgiveness. She does not call herself an expert on the topic of forgiveness. In fact, she's very kind of self-deprecating about this. But when I read her chapter on the five misconceptions of forgiveness I was like wow, it made me see it in a different way. And trust me, folks, I have read so many things about forgiveness. Would you mind elaborating, tricia, on this whole topic of forgiveness for others, also, I'm sure, for ourselves?
Speaker 3:You and Justin have already laid the foundation how we all feel of whether it's through regret or through shame or whatever I call it like the shower moment. It's a thing that's like when you're in the shower, it just sits with you. It's like it's when you're in the car, the car line or at the shower moment. It's a thing that's like when you're in the shower, it just sits with you. It's like it's when you're in the car, the car line or at the bank waiting. It's like that thought comes to you and it may. It brings up either unhealthy emotions, and so we get to this crossroads that we know we want to choose something different, but we don't know what the choice is, and so we lean on our own understanding to think okay, I just need to power through this. I need to get over this. Why do I keep thinking about it? It gets really frustrating, and what we've learned and what we hope to share with the listener and the reader is we have to begin by embracing the truth of where we are, and truth is where we begin to walk into forgiveness, because if we're not truthful of where we're at, then what we bring and what we think we need to forgive, whether it's ourselves or to offer that forgiveness to somebody else. It's kind of half baked, because we've morphed it into what we think they either need or what we feel most comfortable with. And so it's that brutal honesty to say gosh. That regret is devastating me. I know I can't change it, everybody keeps telling me that, but why am I sitting here with it still? And forgiveness is the greatest gift, because it's the beginning process of choosing something different.
Speaker 3:The problem is is that we first hit this barrier of sitting with it and then the next barrier is well then, what is forgiveness? And a lot of these misconceptions are just forgive and forget, which fits that model, and you're like I've been trying to forgive and forget. One more person says that to me I'm going to come unglued, and it's true. It's like even when we think we have the good tools, they're not working. And so what I've had to learn in my own life and I think reigns true for all of us is that forgiveness is a process, and for many of us, we've been taught the misconception that forgiveness is one and done, and so if you are struggling after you've you know quote unquote forgiven, you probably didn't do it right and God's probably disappointed in you because you're still hanging on to that, you know. But forgiveness is a process and for some of our wounds it's a daily process of offering forgiveness or receiving forgiveness.
Speaker 3:But this is where it's different between behavior modification and heart transformation. It's instead of stewing over what you can't change, the process of forgiveness allows you to see that regret in a different way, that you can't change it, but you can accept what it is, that you can leave it in the past and not bring it to your present or to your future, and so it becomes a part of your story. I call it like it's the difference between rose colored glasses, which are my favorite glasses to wear who does not want rose colored glasses? And then life feels shattered and you just feel like, oh, everything's going to look broken forever and ever. But in the process of forgiveness and realizing it's not one and done and you may have to offer it, you may feel like they don't deserve forgiveness and that's part of your process.
Speaker 3:But it's this remembering that the ground is level at the foot of the cross, while we are all sinners, christ died for us and that brings a belonging to us in this process of forgiveness that we realize that our shattered glasses actually can become a prism of just beauty, to see God love you so well in the midst of your own mistakes, or this beauty that only through power of Christ he allows us to offer that forgiveness. And I can't explain it because it's from God, but I do know from psychological terms forgiveness it's restorative, holistically, physically, emotionally and spiritually, and then you don't have to work for it. It's not a checkmark. Forgiveness becomes a lifestyle of letting go, but letting go with purpose. That brings healing, not letting go just to get over. And so it changes your mindset on how to accept those regrets but move forward in a true hope and a true joy. That James says. That goes beyond our circumstances.
Speaker 1:And that's what struck me in your whole chapter about this is the idea that you talked about the healing for ourselves. I'm self-interested, so that gets my attention. I have people I can't forgive, or I think I say I do and then I don't, and I'm like you know, when we hold on to that, it actually and you have medical studies quoted in here when we hold on to that, it actually produces negative stuff in our bodies. You know the anxiety and the negative cortisol and all of that stuff that's not helping us and science has shown that when we release that, if we really do, and the healing is, as you said, holistically healthy, it is physically healthy for us as well as emotionally and mentally and spiritually. And I love how you say this is a process you know every day, every day until, look at it and you know, as I always say, and my gosh, who am I to judge? Who am?
Speaker 3:I to judge.
Speaker 1:I've got my stuff. I love that. Say it again the ground is level at the foot of the cross.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've never heard that before I love it. When you think of that. I think the one misconception that I talk about that, even if we understand what we just stated about forgiveness, is that we equate forgiveness with trust and so we put ourselves in proximity of people that are unhealthy. We don't set up boundaries because we've misunderstood what love and forgiveness is. But I believe that boundaries which I know is kind of a buzzword Some, as a listener, you may have just rolled your eyes at me and it's okay, but hang here with me, you know, but boundaries is the most lavish act of love that you could give to somebody, because it's saying I care enough about you to put time and attention in how I interact with you.
Speaker 3:If I didn't care then I would just peace out and just shut you out of my life. And the gift of forgiveness is forgiveness doesn't equate trust, but forgiveness is the starting point because forgiveness is what restores your heart. Forgiveness is the starting point because forgiveness is what restores your heart, Forgiveness is what allows you to think clearly, and so we share in the book. You know a story of you know, a couple of years ago, Justin and I both finding out in the same week that our dads weren't our dads. You heard that right, I want to say we're not related. So that's our big thing that we're excited about.
Speaker 3:Our dad is not the same person, not related, so that's our big thing that we're excited about. Our dad is not the same person, but I share that. I had done all of this work about forgiveness and written a book about it and go around the country speaking about it, and then it was like what happened the deceit and the struggle that we found ourselves back in with our own moms. It was like a litmus test of going okay in everything that I've been talking about in these new shattered frames. Is it really real? And it wasn't an overnight process, but that happened in 2021. And now here in 2025, the process of forgiveness.
Speaker 3:It doesn't equate trust, but it puts you on a path of a life of no regrets and we have learned to walk in forgiveness daily. And forgiveness changes your view to see a person beyond their mistakes and see them as a child of God. It's helped us show grace where graces need to be given. It's helped us show grace where graces need to be given. It's helped us curate boundaries where boundaries need to be created. But with forgiveness, you can offer it regardless of how a person responds. With trust, it's a two-way street and so oftentimes we feel like we're getting forgiveness wrong because it's not been reciprocated or it hasn't brought transformation, and so we just stop doing it. But forgiveness is a gift that just keeps on giving. It may not always restore a relationship, but it always restores your heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, always restores your heart and you said that over and over again in the book. I highlighted it every time I came across it and I also like giving us all permission and really showing us the difference between forgiveness and trust. You said forgiveness is free, trust is earned. People who have betrayed us. We're not required to trust them, but, like you said, by forgiving and boundaries. That is, bob Goff, the author calls it loving people from a distance. Boundaries are actually, as you said, kind, because an alternative is being mean. Right, you could be mean, you could voice your no. You're being kind, you're not being mean, you're not saying mean things you can't take back. You're setting up a healthy boundary and sometimes that's awkward. I've had to do it, but I've done it gradually. You know, in some case, in doing it gradually and I'm also in the South where I don't mean to generalize in anyone listening, but we really don't like to confront people, so we just smooth things over, yeah, well.
Speaker 2:I think I think you know you mentioned that you attend North Point. I think I heard Andy Stanley say one time forgive freely and trust slowly.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's a good motto to live by Forgive freely, trust slowly.
Speaker 1:We have only scratched the surface of this great book. I always tell people on this podcast, tell listeners that you've got to get this book. I always read the whole book. I always tell people on this podcast tell listeners that you've got to get this book. I always read the whole book. I told you I read this one twice. This is a gift book. This is a book you give the people you love. It's so simple. And you've got to buy this book because we didn't talk enough about the whole idea.
Speaker 1:And here's my question. I'm going to ask the listener what is the choice you could make today in your life, whether it's forgiving someone or starting to do something or letting go of it? What is the choice you could make today where your future self, seven years from now, would write you a thank you letter? What would your life look like seven years from now if you made that choice? And I like that, our future self. Let's not weigh the next seven years down with the same old, tired regret. We're just losing time. And you know I keep saying my age, but 61, you don't have a lot of time to waste. You just got to move on to the positive stuff. Thank you so much folks. You can find them at refineusorg. Right, refine Us Ministries is at refineusorg. I will have that in the show notes. You can certainly go to Amazon and find Justin and Tricia Davis. One Choice Away from Change. That is a choice you could make today that would impact your future possibly. Thank you so much for your time. It's been great talking to you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you so much.
.jpg)