How Entrepreneurs Stay Steady When Success And Failure Hit

Success can go to your head. Failure can go to your heart. And if you’re building something from scratch, it’s easy to let the business decide who you are.

We sit down with Brett Smith, Executive Director of the Center for LIFE at Miami University (Leading the Integration of Faith and Entrepreneurship), to dig into what founders rarely say out loud: entrepreneurship is a tough, lonely sport that can amplify stress, shame, and identity swings. Brett shares what his research reveals about the “high highs and low lows” of entrepreneurial life and why a founder’s identity often rises and falls right along with revenue, funding, and momentum.

Then we get practical. Brett explains how a relational identity with God can act as a stabilizing counterbalance to entrepreneurial identity, affirming you in the lows and humbling you in the highs. We also unpack why success can be just as destabilizing as failure, how faith can shape decision making when the information is ambiguous, and why translating academically rigorous research into everyday language actually matters for entrepreneurs, investors, and teams.

Finally, we point you to free tools through Faith Driven Entrepreneur’s Research Insights and share where to learn more about the Center for LIFE, including resources on faith-driven entrepreneurship and social entrepreneurship. If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with a founder friend, and leave a review so more people can find it.

Brett Smith Bio:

Brett R. Smith, Ph.D. is the Cintas Endowed Chair of Entrepreneurship, Founding Director, Center for Social Entrepreneurship, and Founding Research Director, Leading the Integration of Faith & Entrepreneurship (L.I.F.E.) Research Lab at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. His research interests focus on social and faith-based entrepreneurship. His research has been featured in leading academic journals.

Learn more and contact Brett at: https://lifemiamioh.com/

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Transcript

Welcome Back And Why Brett Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I would like to welcome a very special guest to the Pivotal People Podcast. He was on four years ago. I went to Miami University of Ohio in Oxford, Ohio, and graduated a million years ago. My son, 30 years younger, also went to Miami of Ohio 11 years ago. And when he was there, I got to know this wonderful professor who is with us today. Brett Smith is the executive director for the Center for Life, which is an acronym, and he's going to explain that. When I got to know him, he was the director of the social entrepreneurship program. And I had the opportunity to work with some of his students on their entrepreneurial projects, and it was a lot of fun. And I'll admit it was an excuse to go to Miami twice a year to make sure I could visit my son. At any rate, I want to welcome you, Brett. He's here today to talk about some really exciting research and projects that could help our listeners. So pay attention. Brett, welcome. Thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Oh, Stephanie, thank you. It's it's such a pleasure to be back with you and to reminisce both on our time when you were here and many of the things that have happened since then. So it's a pleasure to be here and it's it's absolutely my honor.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Thank you. And could you tell us before we start what you're doing at Miami Now and what exactly is the Center for Life?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Sure. It's a great question. And it probably raises more questions and answers, but we'll try and unpack some of them. So in 2018, we started our down this path to develop what eventually became the Center for Life in 2023. The basic idea is that when you look at entrepreneurship and probably business more broadly, there

The Center For LIFE Explained

SPEAKER_00 1:46

are certain areas that are generally not discussed. Sometimes those might be gender, sometimes those might be race. Well, another one of those is faith and religion. And so often what happens is in the context of the conversation, we will say, hey, do you think when someone walks in the door on Monday morning, their gender matters to the work that they do? And everyone's like, of course. And do you think their race matters? Everyone's like, of course. And I would simply say, do you think their faith matters? And so, regardless of whether faith is important to you or not important to you, the fact that it may matter to the person walking in the door on Monday morning makes it an important area for discovery. And because it's been so neglected and we've been really hesitant to talk about it, particularly in the business world and how it might interact, we thought that not only was it important, it was necessary for us to actually have a broader understanding of business and more specifically entrepreneurship. So in 2023, we launched a center, Life is an Acronym. It stands for leading the integration of faith and entrepreneurship. And the real purpose is to build knowledge and experiences at this intersection. We will often say they need to be academically rigorous and practically relevant. And we can talk more about that. But the basic idea is if it's not practically relevant, you shouldn't care. If it's not academically rigorous, you should maybe not even trust it. And so it needs to really be both. And it doesn't mean that someone's experience isn't true, but it does mean that I go to lots of conferences as you do, and someone will stand up and say, Here's my experience. I'd say, I love your experience, but your experience is n equals one. So I don't know if your experience can generalize to somebody else. So part of the idea of doing academic research is to start to say, hey, let's put these stories together and see do we have trends and do we understand patterns and those sorts of things at this sort of neglected area of faith and entrepreneurship?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

I got it. So I read the study and I read articles about it. And before we proceed, Brett, let's kind of define this for people. When you talk about faith, could you talk about the difference between faith as a practice and faith as what you call in your study an identity-forming relationship? Because someone listening might not know exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

For sure.

Faith As Practice Versus Identity

SPEAKER_00 4:16

And I think this is part of the area and part of why people get really uncomfortable when you step into this space is like, well, what does it mean? And what does it mean to you? The reality is we have literally hundreds of years of research on understanding faith or more specifically religion, and what that means and how people practice that. It tends to break down into two different areas. One tends to be around the things people believe, and one tends to be on the way people practice it. They're not right or wrong, but they are two different areas and two different ways to think about it. And so part of what we did is we did a study with entrepreneurs. And the basic premise was entrepreneurs go through low lows and high highs. And let me pause here for just a minute. Entrepreneurship is a tough sport. It is unlike some areas insofar as the work demands upon the entrepreneur are very difficult and somewhat unique. They are probably akin to a high-level CEO in the sense that they are isolated. There aren't a lot of people they can share their problems with. But it's different from a CEO because the viability of the business is often at stake. So a CEO isn't usually worried about are we going out of business or not. The entrepreneur always is. And so the basic issues in the entrepreneur is it's a tough sport, it is lonely, there is a lot of pressure, and it becomes this crucible for defining who you are, not just what you do. And so the study was really about that. It was to say, hey, when entrepreneurs go through what we often call the low lows and high highs of entrepreneurship, it turns out that their identity as an entrepreneur generally follows that path. When things are going badly, not only is my business bad, but maybe I too am not a very good entrepreneur. When things are going really well, not just is my business going really well, but I do think I know an awful lot of things about not just my business, but about lots of things. And so our question was simply this through these high highs and low lows and these identity shifts that go on with entrepreneur, what difference does faith make? And that's what we went out to study.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

And that's what I thought was so interesting because when you talk about research, you were talking about the numbers. You were talking about 150 hours of you know group discussions. You were talking about it, was it 86 entrepreneurs you interviewed? 719 personal journal entries. I don't know about you folks, but if you keep a personal journal and I do, wow. I mean, that's the raw,

Why Entrepreneurship Hits So Hard

SPEAKER_01 7:01

honest stuff. If you were able to really harvest that. And I found the results fascinating. A couple things are going through my mind when you're talking about what entrepreneurs experience differently than I've I've done both. I've worked at a corporation for 10 years and I was an entrepreneur for, I don't know, 15, 20. You are responsible for the money. And when you talk about the viability, that's what you're talking about. The CEO isn't having to worry about raising funding. And that is a lot of pressure. Whether some entrepreneurs have mortgaged their homes, they have taken out huge loans that would sink them if they couldn't pay them, or they're responsible for a handful of employees, and those families are dependent on their earnings. And I don't know the stat, but I have a couple of friends who committed suicide when their businesses failed.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

And there's data to support that. The divorce rates are much higher among entrepreneurs than non-entrepreneurs, the suicide rates, the rates of depression, all of these statistics, the well-being of the entrepreneur is actually incredibly negative compared to the regular working population. So it's a real, real problem about just the difficulties and the stress that they feel. Not to say there are other stressful jobs. I don't mean that at all. I just mean that on average, the stress that an entrepreneur feels is different in terms of magnitude compared to the general working public.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

And as you said, also the huge success. When you have the huge success, I mean something interesting I noted in your study is the the entrepreneur whose sole identity is that I am this business, and the success of this business determines who I am. And the shame of failure. There's so much shame. But when you have huge success, that is addictive. That's a little bit of a dopamine hit, and that is a roller coaster. So then they have to do it again. Like it's hard to get to the enough place.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, you're spot on. That is exactly right. I mean, the reality is that most of the entrepreneurs, there's an easy way to sort of sum it up. It will say that success will go to our head and failure will go to our heart. And the short version of that means when we're really successful, we're like, oh, I I really am that good. I start to believe my headline, so to speak. And when we fail, we internalize that as entrepreneurs in a way very few other do, maybe professional athletes. I mean, there are probably some commonalities with people performing at the highest levels, but yet it becomes this deep internalization of, and for a good reason, right? Like the reason it becomes identity shaping and identity forming is think about what culture tells you. I'm going to eat, breathe, sleep, think about this all of the time. And because of that constant pressure, that constant reality of the business is always on your mind, whether you're there or not there, it does become very much shaping of not just what I'm doing, but also of who I am or who I am becoming.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

So the reason I asked Brett to come on is because I had just seen a press release that we're going to talk about the results of Brett's research, first of all, which is fascinating. And you'll tell us the details. Done a partnership with an organization that can make this, the findings of this research accessible to anybody listening. You're going to hear this, you're going to say, wait a second, that's the attitude I want. That's if I'm an entrepreneur, or even if you're in any kind of a profession, that's the attitude I want. How can I get that? So this is a very practical podcast today. You're going to learn how you can get free resources and to help navigate this crazy professional world, whether you're working for a corporation or you're working on your own. So, Brett, back to you. Could you share with us what you found in your study about this relational identity with faith?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

So, again, what we were trying to figure out is during this roller coaster ride, what difference does faith make to the entrepreneur? And we found that while they do have this entrepreneurial identity, for people of faith, many of them also had this second identity, what we call a relational

The Study: Faith As Counterbalance

SPEAKER_00 11:25

identity with God. For them, from their data, from all of the journal entries, from all the interviews that you already talked about, we found that there were three components of this relational identity, which made it really important when it interacted with this entrepreneurial identity. The first is that they saw themselves as a truly a child of God, of a son or daughter of God. Well, that became very important because it became relational. Now my value didn't come from my business, my value came from a relationship. Secondly, and this is really important, so much of the entrepreneurial identity is earned. Everything I do, it's about me. And again, that's where we get this success and failure problem of when it goes well, it's all about me. And when it goes badly, it's all about me. What we see in a relational identity with God is it's actually not earned, it's received. It comes to us through a relationship. So think about this in your own life. If you happen to have kids of your own, there's very few things a child could do where you're like, ah, I'm not sure I love them anymore. Right? It is that sort of a thing. They didn't do anything to earn your love, they just receive your love. And so that's what we saw in the entrepreneurs with God. And then the last thing is this identity wasn't one of many. This was for many of them the most important identity. So it didn't fluctuate, it didn't sort of come and go. It was very central to them. And so what we saw is that in times of lows, when the entrepreneurial identity was like, oh, not only is my business a failure, I'm a failure. This relational identity with God actually affirmed them out of that low. And in times of highs, it actually humbled them out of their highs. And so it acted as sort of a counterbalance to their entrepreneurial identity. So this relational identity with God served as a counterbalance to their entrepreneurial identity in both times of highs and in times of lows.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Which is obviously far more healthy for your mental well-being, far better for your family.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

And it turned out in the data itself, very helpful for persistence for the entrepreneur, right? In times of highs and lows, it's really tough to sort of keep going on both ends of those. But we saw that because it became regulated and was much more in regular pattern, that it actually helped the persistence of the entrepreneurs to keep going both when they encountered success and when they encountered some troubles and challenges.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

I wonder if people who have read the study, because it's been out a couple of years. I wonder if people who were kind of neutral on faith, if that got them curious. I mean, one question is I mean, you can't fake faith, but you can certainly be curious about it and dig into it and learn about it.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

For sure. And I think then you would discover it, but and I think a lot of people, this this is one of those studies where people are like, wow, I get it. Like I immediately say, okay, it's this counterbalance, I get it. I may or may not agree with the the people you studied about their faith, but it does trigger like, hey, maybe there is something in faith, not just for my personal life, but also for my professional life.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

To define faith, we're not just talking about Christianity. We're talking about any relational identity with God, whatever someone's particular background is.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

That is true. And the purpose of our study, we actually did just interview and worked on Christian entrepreneurs, but the study of faith and entrepreneurship is, of course, much broader than that.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

So now that we get the concept, tell us about your partnership and what that can mean for like our listeners.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Sure, of course. So so one of the critiques of academic research is it's it's the ivory tower, and you publish this thing, and nobody else can read it, nobody else can understand this, just academics talking to academics. That's unfortunate because there is an awful lot of

Turning Research Into Free Tools

SPEAKER_00 15:32

great research that happens that is very practically relevant as well. And so that was the point. Much of what you would see in something like Harvard Business Review, that actually starts as academic research and then is translated into the language of practitioners, so that, again, it's academically rigorous and practically relevant. So we were working with our friends at Faith Driven Entrepreneur, Justin Foreman and Henry Case, and people that have just been super gracious over the years, both to our work and to promoting this broader emerging stream of faith-driven entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Well, tell us exactly what is Faith Driven Entrepreneur?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, so Faith Driven Entrepreneur is a media company. If you go on their website, it's just faithdrivenentrepreneur.com. You will be able to find anything you want to find from podcasts to interviews to resources. As they were doing all of this work, they said, hey, and we started a conversation like maybe this academic research has a place in educating and helping people understand how this fits. But, and this was an important but, we've got to get it out of academic speak and put it into everyday language. And so this was actually this wonderful partnership where we said, hey, let's base what we're going to tell you on academic research, right? Someone says drinking cherry tart juice at night helps you sleep better. You're like, well, until they say there's a study that says, and that sort of changes the whole tenor of the conversation. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to do the studies that say, in this case on identity and its role in entrepreneurship, but yet then we're trying to show you how you can practically use the information. And so we worked with Faith Driven Entrepreneur. We have now done three studies. We have three more in the queue of continuing to build this base of knowledge that is academically rigorous and practically relevant that gives real insights to entrepreneurs about how their faith might affect how they look at opportunities, how they deal with identity, how they do a number of things that entrepreneurs have to do, but do it in really, really practical ways. Like give me the three takeaways, give me the five bullet points that I want to take away. And that's the point. How do we base it on academic research? But how do we make it very useful for the entrepreneur or investor?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

I'm gonna say they're doing that really well because I went to their website when I saw a press release about this partnership. So I go to Faith Driven Entrepreneur, and there is what I would say is Brett's study translated into you know Stephanie's speak. I can understand it. And here's the headline. You just heard about this academic research. Now, if it was the raw study, it might say something like findings from 86 interviews with entrepreneurs and blah, blah, blah. No, here's the headline. Tell me if you want to read this article. Success was just as destabilizing as failure until this changed. Well, now I think that's interesting. I want to know about that. Then how a relationship with God stabilizes entrepreneurs through the highs and the lows. And I'm listening to Brett, and I'm thinking I just have to share this personal experience I had as an entrepreneur because we know hindsight's 2020, right? And so I try to tell my kids this stuff now as they're working and one is an entrepreneur, but you have to experience it yourself to really learn. The reason this podcast is called Pivotal People is when my career is done, my 20-year thing, I kind of looked back on it and I was trying to pull out the meaningful stories and I wanted to write uh stories about it. And what I discovered was there were four people, had they not stepped into the story and did what they did for me, it would never have been, it was a huge success. It would never have been a huge success. And boy, was that humbling. And then I thought, wait a second, don't tell me that was a coincidence. Because each of those four people, it was so unlikely that they would step into my story. And then I'm like, okay, there was God at work in my story. And I can say this completely honestly: this is not false humility. God was the story. This was a God story. Yeah, He used me. Yeah, I had some talents and skills, but I didn't do this on my own. And that's what I want my sons to see. And hopefully, as they go through, well, my son had a little blip with his little entrepreneurial venture the other day, and we're talking on the phone. He said, Okay, tell me how this is God's will. Like, oh, well, I didn't say it was God's will. He's probably not happy about it either.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

But I do know you'll get through it. So, anyway, it's great story, Stephanie. And I think that's part of the storyline here, is that whether you're a person of faith or you're not a person of faith actually is somewhat irrelevant to the fact that faith is affecting the way entrepreneurs are doing this. Because you could be an investor, you could be a customer, you could be a team member. And so it isn't just for, hey, people of faith, it's also for people who maybe they're not sure about faith to also understand how people of faith may be processing, how they bring faith into their entrepreneurial venture. What one of the other studies that we didn't talk about, we did a lot of research with Benedictine monks. And what we were trying to understand is how do they do creativity and what role does faith play in their creativity? And everyone's like, oh, you know, a religion must just really constrain their creativity. And others are like, no, no, no, it must just optimize their creativity. And in reality, we found it does both. It actually constrains where they look for their creativity and it draws contours or boundaries. But then within those boundaries, it is almost limitless in terms of their possibilities. And so it was just an example of where we say, hey, whether you agree with this or don't, that that's fine. Like that's your decision. But what we're trying to do is build an academic base of knowledge that says, here is how it is affecting entrepreneurial processes like creativity or ideas. identity or those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

So what could somebody listening, what would you suggest they do in terms of taking advantage of the resources you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Fate Tribe and Entrepreneur has been terrific. They are now making these resources available for free on their website. Under their tab, it says Research Insights, you can go and click on it and you will now see I think three different articles that have been translated from the academic speak to the Harvard Business Review, like I'm ready to use it speak. So that's a great starting point. And we are continuing to work with them. As I said, we have three more in the queue and the idea is to as the field of knowledge continues to grow, so too does the field of practical knowledge continue to grow. So we are working with them for the foreseeable future to continue to build this foundation of knowledge of how faith intersects or or affects entrepreneurship.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Good. And I'll put the link to that in our show notes, but faith-driven entrepreneur. When you were doing this research, I'm just curious what surprised you the most?

SPEAKER_00 23:03

I think a couple of things surprised us. I I think the first thing that surprised us in in the study of identity was I guess it wasn't overly surprising that somehow faith played a role in the times of challenge, right? We we see lots of data that we see lots of personal experiences where where people are more likely to actually turn to faith

The Surprise: Success Can Be Dangerous

SPEAKER_00 23:23

when they're struggling, when something's going wrong. What was very surprising and the entrepreneurs said it point blank, they said one of the greatest challenges for my identity was in times of success. And we're like we sort of didn't anticipate that sort of coming into the study. And they said that it was just as important for them in the times of highs as it was in the times of lows to sort of humble them out of this success. Because in their words they said if I started to believe my own press, then I actually make some decisions without careful due diligence. I actually start to think, oh, I'm a little bit more than I actually am. I'm a little bit more responsible for all of the success. So I start to make decisions. I quit listening to my teammates. I quit listening to my investors and I'm bored and I do things on my own. And so it was this really interesting like we expected it in the lows. We didn't expect it in the highs at all.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

This might sound off topic but I have to share it. I don't know if you've read the book Theo of Golden Yes my my wife loves it. Yes. So Theo of Golden is the you know number one fiction story now. But as I'm thinking about I'm thinking of the author. So I read the book and I became so fascinated by the author I listened to his interviews and here's what's so neat we should all try to emulate this entrepreneur. He's 69 years old when he writes this book just for fun.

A Viral Novel And Faith-Based Risk

SPEAKER_01 24:48

He took him a few years to write it. It's a novel he has been a singer songwriter. He lives in a small town in Georgia. He modeled the book after the small town in Georgia he modeled the book after some people he knows and he wasn't going to do anything with it. He's 69 barely uses a cell phone he said and he just had the manuscript under his bed I have a friend who's friends with him so I've heard this story. You know his buddies ask him hey other songwriters would you ever finish that book? Yeah. Are you going to let us read it? We'll have our wives read it. So three guys had their wives read it and their wives said oh we loved it. Okay. So you should do something with this well he doesn't know anything about anything he's like traditional publishing I'm 69 years old. That's too hard less than 1% success rate. So he gets his niece and she goes ahead and uh agrees to help him out and she publishes self-publishes it on Amazon and you know does a little social media he said our goal was to sell a hundred copies and what happened was slowly gradually women's book clubs picked it up and it went viral. Pretty soon he said we couldn't believe how many copies we're selling and then pretty soon he's been contacted by agents I have a hardback copy of his book and I finished it and I flipped to see who published it and it was his name I'm like this is so beautiful. You know anyone if you're not in the book business you make a lot more money off a book but he wasn't doing it to make money. So here's what I'm excited about Brett he's a Christian and his whole story his main character is modeled after his brother who passed away who has great respect and admiration for if we all lived a life of this main character it would be an incredibly beautiful world. So I've never had a novel touch me in the way this novel touched me. And it is not classified in the Christian book category but I've seen him he's been he just was interviewed by Oprah I saw him interviewed by Katie Kirk. He is as busy as can be and in his interview he said you know I didn't need any money. It's not about that I am just so happy that so many hearts have been touched I mean he sold well over a million copies that's exponential now. But I look at that that man is living his faith you know so then he's asking questions about his faith in his book he lived his faith isn't that so beautiful that his intention was never to but as he said to touch hearts so everyone read this book. Well so now there's a paperback version with Simon and Schuster but I have a hardback signed by him copy because my friend gave it to me a year ago.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah well I but I think I think there is a really nice analog Stephanie in the sense that entrepreneurs will often turn to their faith as we said in times of challenge or difficulty or uncertainty. One of the studies that is also on Faith of an entrepreneur compared entrepreneurs when they received like perfectly clear information and when they received really ambiguous information. And the reality was this that entrepreneurs that all received really clear information they made the same decisions. If it was really negative they said no if it was really positive they said yes. The role faith played is when you had this uncertain information. And what what our study found is that entrepreneurs of faith actually imputed their faith into the decision making process and tended to be more positive and more likely to take action than those that didn't have faith. And and and so I think there is a really neat analog to your story of you may not have taken the leap to go ahead and get the book out there. You may not have taken the leap to go do the social media around it absent one's faith and yet here is the opportunity in which faith does or could for some people play a really important role.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

And what a great platform you can have if you're an entrepreneur and you have a successful business. I mean did he know Katie Kirk was going to ask him the question Alan I'm not religious myself but it appears you are and he said well yes I am a follower of Jesus and I was like oh that's so great. It's just so authentic. So the other thing about being an entrepreneur I think is that you have an opportunity to live your authentic self. It's not just about making money it's about you know giving putting out in the world what it is you know or what you can help people with. And so quickly I'd love for you to explain a little bit about social entrepreneurship because so many of the listeners of this podcast are around my age I'm 62 maybe we're retired. There's a lot more to be done you could do a volunteer initiative that helps people that is a form of entrepreneurship. And so social entrepreneurship might speak to some folks what is that?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Yeah the

Social Entrepreneurship That Solves Chronic Problems

SPEAKER_00 29:44

idea of social entrepreneurship was really to say how do we take these tools of entrepreneurship? So how do we identify opportunities and and I raise resources and build teams to go problem solve. But the the nature of the problems that we're solving is just different. So rather than solving a technology problem entrepreneurship tends to solve sort of chronic social problems. So that might be something like poverty that might be a lack of access to education that might be human trafficking. And so it takes the tools of entrepreneurship but uses them in areas where we have these like chronic social problems that we haven't been able to resolve. And now we're going to bring an entrepreneurial approach into and around those areas. Sometimes those are nonprofit models a lot of people equate those that's not necessarily true. Sometimes those are for-profit models and that's not good or bad. That's just the nature of where where is the mechanism that's going to allow the greatest value to be created. And so you see historical examples some people will point to William Wilberforce and say he was a social entrepreneur who was helping to abolish you know slavery. You will see current examples Tom shoes at one point was was the example that everyone posed because it was like how do I buy a shoe and give a shoe it was this really neat model to solve in this case an issue about about access to to appropriate shoes. And so it's this really interesting model to say how do I create innovative solutions to persistent social problems. And this is one mechanism that that happens to do that.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Well I told Brett I would keep him for half an hour of course I kept him longer than that but I so appreciate your time if people want to get in touch with you or learn more about the Center for Life or I I'm quite certain that there are resources available to folks even if we aren't students at Miami of Ohio.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Of course of course of course I I will send you all of the information but

Where To Find Resources And Connect

SPEAKER_00 31:51

our website is lifemyamiamioh.com you can find access to any of our resources that's the research that's the teaching that's the connections we do to students that's curriculum or you can go to faithdrivenentrepreneur dot com and that's where you will see the research articles and these translations into practice. Feel free to reach out to me all of my contact information is on our website happy to to talk to anyone that is interested in and around this space.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Well thank you that's a very generous offer I appreciate it. Well I and we will uh look forward to having you on next time when you have a new project to enlighten us with Stephanie thank you so much it's been a pleasure to be with you again today and really appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Thank you so much. Thanks