Widows Who Wine: From Grief to Thriving

We sit down with Pam Baker, founder of "Widows Who Wine" and author of "Where's the Key to the Safe"  to talk about rebuilding life after loss through friendship, purpose, and practical preparation. We also get into the uncomfortable but essential money and paperwork realities that hit families during grief and how to make them easier. 
• Pam’s path from cystic fibrosis advocacy to widowhood leadership 
• Why Widows Who Wine is a social sisterhood rather than a grief group 
• How loneliness shows up after loss and what helps women rejoin life 
• The “business of death” and why probate tasks feel brutal in grief fog 
• The widow tax and the hidden ways cash flow can drop 
• How to choose financial help and how various fee structures work 
• Common traps like authorized user cards and lack of account access 
• Beneficiary reviews that can override a will and trigger conflict 
• Writing letters to children to explain decisions and reduce infighting 
• How to start a Widows Who Wine chapter with support from Pam and her team
Connect with Pam:

Order her book: https://lastinglegacyconsulting.com/book/

Connect via her website: https://widowswhowine.com/

Find her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/widowswhowine

Subscribe to the Pivotal People newsletter for new episodes, giveaways and more: https://stephanienelson.com/newsletter/
Learn more at StephanieNelson.com
Follow us on Instagram  @stephanie_nelson_cm
Follow us on Facebook at CouponMom

Order Stephanie's book Imagine More: Do What You Love, Discover Your Potential 

Transcript

Welcome And Why Pam Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I would like to welcome Pam Baker to the Pivotal People Podcast. I'm really excited to have Pam on. I have to tell you a little story I heard about her about a year ago from a friend of mine. And then another friend of mine brought her up again a couple of months ago because she came out with a new book. And I thought, oh my gosh, that would be so great for my podcast. And so I reached out to Pam on Instagram as a complete stranger. And she responded and she said, sure, she'd come on the podcast. So I'm super excited. Let me tell you a little bit about her. And then we're going to let her talk because you're going to love her. She does a whole bunch of stuff. First of all, she's the mother of four, four young adults now. She has been a widow for five years, and she's going to share that story with us. She's been an advocate and a fundraiser. She hosts a podcast of her own called The Lost Love Stories. And she's the author of a new book called Where's the Key to the Safe? How to Avoid Probate Pitfalls and Maximize Family Finances. But the reason I heard about Pam a year ago is because she started a small group years ago called Widows Who Wine, and that's W-I-N-E. It's now a large organization and helps hundreds, I think perhaps thousands of widows. But I heard about it from a woman who was in her group. And it was so encouraging to hear that there was a group like this. And in fact, when I go to the Widows Who Wine website and Pam talks about what this is, I said, Oh, is that a grief support group? And my friend said, Well, no, not really. It's not like that. And here's Pam's vision. I envision a world where widows rise in sisterhood, toast to what was, and courageously create what's next through joy, passion, and unapologetic purpose. And wow. And so that's what my friend was talking about. Her group offers all kinds of ways for widows to connect with each other on all different kinds of interest groups. And this book, Where's the Key to the Safe, really addresses a common issue that people find themselves in after they lose a loved one. So I've read the book, you know, my rule. I read every book. I thought, gosh, when I'm done reading this book, I'm going to implement some of Pam's advice. I got two chapters in and I put the book down. I went to my office and I started doing what Pam recommended. So we're going to talk about a lot of stuff, but we'll talk about the book at the end. And I just want everyone to be sure to get the book. You are going to be so glad you read this book. So, Pam, welcome. Thanks so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

That was the best intro ever. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was long because you do so much stuff. I've always been, I call a hyperachiever, which isn't necessarily a good thing. I would like to settle on the high achiever because hyper causes me anxiety. But I'm working my way toward high instead of hyper. But I do tend to overdo it.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

But you're doing a lot of really great stuff. So let's just start. Could you just kind of tell us your story?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

You mentioned that I have four kids. They're 17 to 26, actually almost 27 now. And I say my career in this whole crazy world of just doing too much started when my oldest was diagnosed with cystic fibrosis when he was two and a half. And I'm not sure if we actually talked about that, but yeah, it's a genetic disease. And I knew nothing about it and immediately

Cystic Fibrosis And Learning Leadership

SPEAKER_02 3:40

found out that it was genetic. And I was already six months pregnant with my second child and had an emneo and found out that Jake would also be born with CF. So my husband and I immediately went into the fundraising world and didn't know how to do it, but just kind of our way of taking our power back, I guess. And the because the life expectancy at the time was 32 for someone born with CF. And I was 32 at the time. And for me, I was like, I felt like my life was just starting. And how could I have my two children's lives be ending? And so we just felt like we had to do whatever we could. So the hyperachiever kicked in, and we immediately we were two months from the big fundraising walk that the CF Foundation has. And we became the number one fundraising team in Georgia. I went two months, and then it that just started. And I kind of say that because I feel like the CF world gave me my training wheels for what my current world is, and that I learned how to be a public speaker. I learned the importance of being a storyteller. I learned how to hone my leadership skills. I learned how to find the good and even the most challenging and heartbreaking of times and really appreciate all the little things in life instead of just celebrating the big things. So that really just formed my identity. I was a stay-at-home mom my whole life, but meanwhile, I was honing all of those skills in the philanthropic world and became quite a force. The two of us became quite a force in that world. You know, we've been the number one fundraising team in the country for, I don't know, 10, 15 years. Wow. So we've we've raised 11 million dollars for the CF Foundation over these years and served in a lot of leadership roles and really just, again, honed those skills that that led me to all of the stuff I'm doing in the widow space now. So I am grateful that I had that as my training wheels because we've made a big impact in the CF world. But I feel like I'm now given an opportunity to make an even bigger impact because there's such a great need in the widow space. You know, there's 30 to 40,000 people in the US with cystic fibrosis. There are 12 million widows in the US. Wow. So it's just a much, you know, bigger platform. And it's completely underserved, just like the CF world. CF is an orphan disease, you know, it's not, it doesn't get a lot of government funding or anything. And widows don't get a lot of expectation of anything except go grieve and, you know, while away your hours on your rocking chair being sad. That's kind of the stereotypical expectation for widows. You know, I became a widow when I was 50. And, you know, I just felt like, what in the world? Like there are so many of us, and there's no no resources outside of grief groups. My husband died in November of 21, and I created Widows Who Wine in February of 23. Because at that point, I was like, what in the world? There, there's nothing. There's like no, and I had met a I had met a few widows at that point. I was like, there's no expectation of living life anymore. And there's so many complicated emotions around living your life after your husband dies. Because, you know, should you be sad? Is it betraying him if you're happy again? Did you not love him enough? You know, there's a lot of complicated emotions all wrapped up in moving forward with your life, and there's no resources for doing so. So that's how it all came to be.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

I'll tell you, Pam and I had a really nice conversation before this podcast. So I learned even more than her book talked about. But one of the things that you just now said, your challenging experience with your kids with CF was like training wheels for this experience. So one of the things with challenging experiences is that you actually saw your oldest is 27. Over these 27 years, you have seen remarkable progress in the CF space, even though it's an orphan disease. And so I think success breeds success. Going forward, I had no idea the contrast of 30 to 40,000 people with CF versus what did you say, 12 million million widows. So could you just finish and tell us about where CF is now with the medication you told me about and the life expectancy now?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Yeah, it's amazing. So in 2019, well, it was before that, but 2019, a major, it's called a modulator. It's a modulator. It's a medication that they take twice a day. So it makes your body sort of act as though you don't have CF and it lasts for 12 hours. So you got to take it every 12 hours. It's been a game changer for my boys and for so many people. It doesn't work for

The CF Breakthrough That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_02 8:28

all people with cystic fibrosis, but it works for about 90% of the population now has a modulator that works and is slowing the progression of the disease. So someone born now today actually has a life expectancy of about 65 versus 32. Wow. Gavin turns 27 next month, and I don't look at it as like, oh my God, he only has a few years. He is so healthy, knock on wood. He's so healthy. And they're both doing so incredibly well because of these medications, because of the advancements that I really just have where I used to live with like a ticking time bomb over my head, like a countdown clock. I just really fully believe they're gonna have full lives now. Like they're gonna get married and have kids of their own and maybe even grandchildren. And that's just a huge change from where I was when they were born and when they were young, where I just really was uh, you know, going back to appreciating every single birthday, every single thing we did was really not taken for granted because we just didn't really know or believe that they would have many of those. And now I just fully believe it. It's been a game changer psychologically as well as physically. So it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

And I love that. And so that same, I hear that same attitude coming out as you're talking about the future for widows. Because I think you're right. As when I read in your book this whole idea of we have no expectations of widows. We think, oh, you know, poor Pam, you know, she doesn't have a husband anymore. Poor Pam. Well, you know, maybe she'll become a grandmother, you know, as if it's the end of your life.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

And yeah, you're you're like a passive participant now, you know, you don't have an active role in it anymore, which is weird.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yeah. Really weird. Yeah. So you started Widows Who Wine in February, you said, of 2022. 23. So that was about a year and a half or almost. Well, now tell us about that group. Tell us about what happens there and what the size and all that you told me before.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah. So it was one of those things where I kept, I kept seeing, you know, on Facebook in my town, there's a Facebook page for uh I'm Roswell, I'm in Roswell, Georgia, Roswell Mom's Facebook group, which has like 10,000 women on it. And so pretty regularly there's somebody posting, or what kind of resources my best friend just lost her husband, or or my dad just died, or you know, whatever. What resources? And every single time it was the same, like church groups, grief groups, this, you

Widows Who Wine Is Not Grief Group

SPEAKER_02 11:00

know. And so one day I will I like kind of snapped. I was like, oh my God, there's got to be something else. And so I'm I I get sort of hyper-fixated on things until I can solve it in my brain. So it took me a couple of days, but I came up with the concept of having a social group for widows, not a grief group. Now, we do support each other when the grief hits because it does, and you never know when it's going to, but it's not. The purpose is not it, not a grief group. The purpose is to is a social group. Like, let's go live life again, let's have fun. And what's weird in this in the widow space is, you know, your couple friends don't really ask you to go out anymore because you're not a couple, and your single friends are divorced and kind of jaded and maybe not, you know, not in the same mindset. So it's just a weird space to live in. And so it does become very lonely. So I was like, I'm gonna give it this name, Widows Who Wine, and thank you so much for spelling that, because it's definitely not W-A-I-N-E. And I wanted it to give that social vibe, like we are gonna have fun and we are gonna be social. I have a couple of little phrases that are taglines in there. It's like it's gonna be a space where you find the best friends you never knew you needed, because you find them and you you're very quickly bonded to these people. And then the other one, it's like it's a space where you can go from like merely surviving to truly thriving. And that's what I see happen all the time. So I put it on socials, I put it on that Roswell mom's, I put it on my own Facebook page and said, I'm hosting this, I'm launching Widows Who Won. Anybody want to come? I didn't know if anybody would show up. And on a really stormy, rainy night in February, I had 14 women show up, all strangers to one another. Some of us knew one another, like you know, peripherally, but mostly all strangers to one another. And that's when it launched, and I was like, this is my vision, and who wants to come on this journey with me? And it was awesome. So I just decided I would plan one social outing a month, and we've done a million different things from axe throwing to crafting to, you know, line dancing to oh my gosh, movie nights. I mean, all kinds of things, but it's really branched out. So it's grown now locally to, I think we have close to 450 women in the Atlanta area who are part of it, and now other chapters getting ready to launch in other places. So always looking for women who want to take the lead on that and and open a Widows Who Wine chapter. It's all trademarked and I got a whole all systems in place. And as you mentioned, I have a website, and so you can always find out more information about that. But yeah, just kind of expanding it everywhere and it now, like locally. Somebody started a book club. So I tell the women, it's your group, whatever you want to do, whatever you so there's a group that meets for coffee, there's a book club once a month, there's a trivia night once a month, there's a widows who dine once a month, we have widows who travel. So we just got back from Iceland in April, we went to Costa Rica in the fall. We just are in the planning stages right now for Croatia in October. So you have travel partners now because we'll all go. We have a once-a-month virtual event, you know, so it's awesome. So it's not just local people that my life coach, who is a certified grief counselor, she runs it. It's called the wisdom circles, where women come on. And it's like the intention of it is you're used to having a partner to make life decisions with. And we don't have that now. So bring whatever problem you're trying to work out to our group, and we have breakout groups and we present it to one another and then get feedback from one another to help. So you have a person to walk you through that, whatever it is you're, you know, you're trying to solve or you're challenging yourself right now. So that's really cool too. So I've done financial planning 101 workshops, I've done home maintenance 101, all kinds of, you know, just empowering and, you know, trying to figure out those skills that maybe our partner was in charge of. And, you know, just empowering and fun and thriving. And I've literally seen women go from like deer in the headlights when they walk into an event or into my house to, you know, like a full transformation where they're like bright, colorful clothes and like the life of the room. And you're just like, oh my God, it's so cool to see truly the movement from merely surviving to really, really, truly thriving. It's so awesome. So it's fulfilling to me every single moment. I was gonna ask you, how does this feel? It's so cool. It's really so cool. And, you know, people tell me all the time, they're like, you changed my life or you saved my life. And I appreciate that sentiment, but they are the ones who chose to show up scared. You know, a lot of times women walk in, they're literally shaking and literally in tears. They're fearful. It takes courage to walk into a group of strangers in a vulnerable state. That takes courage. And, you know, I provided the space, but they're digging deep and finding like, I want something more. I'm gonna start crying. I want something more, and I'm gonna go get it, you know. So they're making it happen. They're choosing to change the direction of their lives and take it, not be passive to become an active participant again and and say, you know what, enough is enough. I I deserve to be happy, I deserve joy, and I'm gonna go find it. And that's just really cool. It's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

It is really cool. And I'm sitting here thinking, you're saying, okay, 14 women came in the beginning. Now you have 450 women in the Atlanta area who are involved. But the ripple effect, you know, each of those women who has come out of their what do I do now? feeling to, oh, there is a future, all of their loved ones in their family who are so relieved to see their mother or their sister come into herself and not, you know, be so worried about her. I also love how, yes, you started this and yes, you're hyper-focused, but you also seem super open to the idea of let's continue evolving. If there's a need, let's meet it. Home maintenance 101. Oh my gosh, the financial stuff, that is a real, that's a real challenge. The financial stuff is a real challenge because it's always been the thing that I do in our family. I find it fascinating, but there's so much I didn't know. And so when I read your book, and I know I've already said, you know, her her book, I'm thinking, oh yeah, you know, I've I'll read this book. It's probably a fun read, but you know, I know all of this. Oh my

Probate Reality And Planning Before Crisis

SPEAKER_00 17:40

gosh. I'm like, I now have this notebook. You can only hear this, but I have this notebook that says Nelson Executor Info, and I have all of the, you know, emergency stuff in there that my son could navigate. I'll tell you what, if you're listening to this, you think, oh, that sounds like such a tedious, awful task. Once I started, it's like once I broke through whatever was holding me back because it's been on my to-do list for years. It wasn't hard and was kind of fun. It was like, okay, wait, I can pull together all my insurance information on one page. Well, that would be helpful for me to know. There's stuff that my husband handles, and so I'm like, could you pull out those files? Could you get me that information? So, for both of us, if one of us were to go first, it would make it so much easier because you're in the middle of grief, right? Yeah. And you're having to deal with that kind of stuff, which has to be dealt with immediately, by the way, when you're in the middle of grief.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Terrible. Like terrible. I tell people all the time, I'm like, my husband had brain cancer. He lived with it for three years, which was twice as long as they gave him. So it's like we had time to plan. And he was a financial advisor, very, very successful financial advisor. And the the reason I wrote the book was because even though even though we had time and he we had a team, we had a lawyer, we had a CPA, we had all the things. And it was still probate, the whole business of death, I call it, was really hard. And I was like, if this is hard for me when I had time to prepare and a team and a husband who did this, how does someone, their, their, their loved one doesn't have to be your spouse, your child, your parent, anybody you have a financial link to, business partner that dies in a car accident or a heart attack, and you're you're trying to do all this with no no preparation and you don't have a team. I was like, how do people do that? Because I barely have any memories from the whole entire first year after John died, and you're making major life decisions. When you don't have all this together, you're expected to make these major decisions that could impact your entire life, your entire future. And you're in such a a grief fog, it's like impossible. It's impossible. So that's the point of the book is like get all this stuff done so you give yourself the space to grieve and honor that relationship instead of being stressed out and and trying to add really important things to your to-do list because you got to get all those things done. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

So someone listening, I would really like to get into some nuts and bolts. Because someone listening could be like I was, which was like, Yeah, I know all this. I'll humor this woman by reading her book. Then, like I told you, chapter two. Some of the things you talk about is, you know, the team. Who is the team? When I put together my sheet of who my team was, I was like, Well, gosh, there's the guy who's done our taxes for 15 years. My son should probably have his name, phone number, and email address because that'll oh wait, here's our attorney. He has a copy of the will, and he could probably explain it. Okay, there you go. There's two people. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that one weird investment we bought years ago. I should probably put that on the list because that's gonna evaporate. He's not gonna know any of that. So when you talk about team, you talk about insurance. Insurance, that's when I stopped. That's when I stopped and I pulled that together from crutches to coffins, disability. You talk about passwords, financials, and deeds. And then you even talked about someone who happens to be a business owner. If you own a business, there's really some things you need to figure out. Oh, designing your cash flow. Yeah, you know, who knows how much they spend. You talk about something interesting. You talked about the widow tax. I had never heard of that, and explain that because that is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Yeah, it's really crazy because it's crazy because when you lose your spouse and like you're a widow, right? There are all kinds of things that happen. A lot of times, so for instance, your insurance and stuff, your costs can actually go up, right? They can go

The Widow Tax And Advisor Red Flags

SPEAKER_02 21:45

up because now you're a single family, single household. This isn't exactly the widow tax. I'm I'm kind of pulling all these things together in my mind and the negative repercussions beyond just losing your person. You can have, like if you're both, you know, you're older in your retirement age. And your spouse dies and you're both taking social security. Well, you don't get both of them. Your cost of living that doesn't necessarily go down, but you have to choose which social security now you get because you don't get both. So you go to you know half the income. The widow text is crazy. And usually my nephew, I'll tell you, so he co-wrote the book with me. He's a financial advisor. My husband was his father figure, and he worked for my husband. So he's a he's a certified financial planner and went through the whole probate process with me. So I like lured him in, I bribed him, threatened him, did whatever I could to bring him in as the I'm a storyteller, but I don't, I'm not a financial planner.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

It's a nice layout of the book because you do a good job of telling your story, and then each chapter is Pam telling the story that we can all relate to. And then once we understand that story, then Pam explains the nuts and bolts of what to do with the financial end of it, which I found very helpful.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Yeah, yeah. And so the widow tax is like he could tell you in a much easier way. And I listened to him because we do workshops together and we go and present the book to anybody, like young professionals all the way up to you know, senior living centers, to churches, to homeowners' associations, women's groups. So we've done a ton of workshops together, which is really fun. But the widow tax is it's basically you're you're being penalized for your husband dying. And it's not an official tax, but because of the way all the finances play out, you actually are being taxed more. Sometimes that you have to for the cash flow issue, if you don't have the cash flow figured out and you don't have access to the cash, you know, you got to pull things from your retirement accounts to cover costs. You're gonna be taxed for this. It's all these different ways that widows are essentially penalized when their husband dies because of the way things are set up or not set up well. So that's part of the whole planning, planning ahead to avoid those.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah, things I hadn't thought about. Well, like you said, if you both are taking Social Security, now you're gonna lose one. You will get the higher of the two, but still you're losing one. The second piece, which I hadn't thought about, is if you're taking the standard deduction, which is relatively high now, now you're not getting it as a married couple, you're getting just one person. So your deduction is half. Yep. So your income could potentially drop. Your deduction is gonna go down. But then here's the third piece I hadn't really thought about, which is we all have different roles in our family. You're a grieving widow, your husband used to do the yard work, you're not all of a sudden gonna start trimming bushes and mowing the lawn if you didn't do it before. And, you know, maybe some car maintenance or maybe some home maintenance. Are you getting on a ladder to clean the gutters? No. So you're gonna start hiring services and vice versa. If the wife dies, you know, I don't know, some of the things the wife did. So, or even like professional services. Perhaps your husband did the tax returns himself. He was a financial planner. Perhaps he did a lot of things that now you really do. Well, you would feel better if you hired someone to do it. So our expenses can go up, our tax deduction will go down, and our income could go down.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And what's even worse if we're not prepared is what if your spouse, whether it's a husband or wife, did all the financial stuff, and you don't have any sense at all of what your spending is. So it's far more complicated than we think, even if you're in a good place financially. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

So that's yeah, that's very true. And my husband, I you know, bless him, he tried all the time to get me to be an active participant in our finances. And I was like, no, I am not. That's why I laugh all the time. The fact that I wrote a finance book, he's like he's like laughing up there or wherever he is because he'd never believe it. But I was always like, nope, nope, not interested. That's your job, not my job. And you know, it I paid the price for that after he died. But thankfully, I had I had Cameron and then, you know, his whole team. And now my son Gavin is actually a CFP as well. So I have I got I got lots of lots of them taking care of me. But, you know, I had a big learning curve when he died. I just started reading everything. Thankfully, I read like every finance book, every estate planning book, all of the stuff so that I could go into these meetings with knowledge and not feel like somebody's gonna take advantage of me. And and I and that paid off because, you know, I didn't have a relationship with our lawyer and he'd been our lawyer forever, but he wanted to do it John's way, you know. So when I went and met with him, I'm the stay-at-home mom, I'm the wife, I would present my ideas for how I wanted to have things done in our estate plan. And he'd say, nope, nope, that's not the way John wanted it to be done. And some of it wasn't even relevant anymore, you know, like for instance, the boys having John had set up a special needs trust for them, not knowing what the future would hold. Well, the future's changed for someone living with cystic fibrosis, and we didn't need to have that in place anymore. And he was like fighting me on it. And thankfully, because I took the time to read before I did all this, I had the kind of confidence to argue the point and the knowledge to argue the point and to kind of fight for what I knew I needed. You know, not having that relationship in place ahead of time was a mistake, not knowing the information ahead of time, also a mistake. Because again, trying to read all that stuff while I was also grieving and taking care of my four children who are grieving wasn't easy, especially because finance books tend to be really, really boring. And that was a very big goal of mine is to make it really conversational and fun and easy and digestible and aesthetically pleasing and all the things because they're very clinical and boring and blah. But, you know, I kind of joke now at our workshops. I tell that story because I'm encouraging people to form a relationship, even if it's not your role within your partnership with your with your spouse. Take the time to know the names and form the relationships and get to know them because doing it after the fact is also not easy. And then I kind of joke and I'm like, now I fired them all and I got my own people, so I got my own team. They listen to me. So, but it was not easy because he was like, This is not the way John wanted it. I'm like, John's not here, I'm here, and this is the way we're gonna do it, you know. But it was when you're still trying to have that argument, also while grieving, it's not easy. So, yeah, a lot of times the relationships default to whoever's job that is within the partnership, and right that's a that's a mistake I made for sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Well, I think it's pretty common, and I'll just tell you one of my pet peefs. I told you I've always been interested in the whole money thing and the finances and whatever. And my husband wasn't that interested, but I mean he does a lot of the day-to-day stuff, so he's probably 50% interested. But because I think when we know our spouse finds something interesting, then we relax in that area. Oh, yeah, and then we pick up the slack in a different area. But when it comes to money, because of what you're talking about, we're all so vulnerable if something happens to the other person. And common thing I hear my friends say is that, you know, I handle the, you know, the household spending, and my husband, he handles the investments, which oh gosh, that just triggers me so much because your husband was a certified financial planner. Okay, so we're gonna put that on the shelf. Yeah, most husbands aren't. Right. And I'm like, what makes you think your husband is good at that? I mean, if there's if there's one thing that you really should be sure they're good about is investing. And investing is uh, you know, if anyone was a we're not Warren Buffett, okay?

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

And so I am proud of you that when you needed to, you went and you read the books so the people couldn't pull the wool over your eyes, so the people couldn't take advantage of your situation because that is when I get heated when I see women or anybody being taken advantage of by a financial agent or a financial advisor. When you know, I had the experience of, you know, early years ago, 20 years ago, my husband and I had an experience with a financial advisor who recommended moves that were not in our best interest. Yeah. And when we recognized that we decided to find someone else and we went to someone else and said, I don't understand why this was recommended. And he said, Well, I can tell you it has the highest commission of.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

I was gonna say, I know exactly why it was recommended. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

And so I think that just being aware of now, do I fault the person whose business is set up that way? No. If you are being compensated in a certain way, of course you're gonna maximize that. That's the rules of the game. Your book does a really good job of explaining different financial advisors and how they work and what their fiduciary responsibilities are and what the fee structure name, what it really means. And if someone's looking for someone to help them with finances, start with that chapter because you want to go in really understanding what you're dealing with. Yeah to make sure that you're a good one.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

It's it's important because you think financial planner, financial planner, but there's they're not. They're there's financial planners, financial advisors. It's just like tax planners and tax uh preparers. There's a difference between a CPA and somebody who's just gonna do your taxes, you know, there's levels of expertise, levels of what's the word I'm looking for. It's like legality, you know, you're not gonna go to a CFP and they're gonna commission you to death. That's just not gonna be, they're not gonna do that. That's it's not even doesn't even fall within compliance, you know, it's illegal. But if you're not within certain realms and certain structures with those certain titles or letters after your name, you can angle for all the best commissions all day long. But it's not gonna be in in your best interest necessarily.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Well, and what Pam's talking about, what I learned from your book was, and this is just a little bit, you still have to buy the book and read this whole chapter because I'm only touching on two words. You need to read the whole thing. But you pointed out the difference between an advisor who says they are fee-based, or if they are fee only. So fee only means the advisor is charging you a fee up front. Well, you know, I'm happy. That's what our advisor is. I'm happy to do that because I pay my accountant, I pay my attorney, I pay you by the hour, and you do your work, and then I know that to the best of your ability and your judgment, this is in my best interest. Now, a fee-based advisor, and that was where we got tripped up with the first one because he said he was fee-based, and I interpreted it as fee only.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

So when he said he was fee-based, he was being honest, but he didn't explain to me what that meant. Fee-based means yes, you're paying a fee. I paid this guy a fee. But they also take commissions from the products they recommend. And he never told us what the commissions were. Why would he? It's our job to say, what's your commission on that? Are you getting a commission on that? What is the difference in commission between X and Y? Why are you recommending that we get a 529 in that other state instead of this state? You know, I learned later when everything was unraveled. You know, he recommended a 529 in the highest commission state. Okay, he's not a dummy. He's very successful. I'm the dummy. I'm the dummy because I didn't know the difference between fee-based and fee only. Yeah. Today we have a fee-only advisor, and he's just way too honest. I'll say, you know, what do you think the stock market's gonna do? He's like, Stephanie, none of us know what the stock market's gonna do. You don't know. Yeah. Do you think interest rates are gonna go up or down? He's like, there's a study where economists who do this for a living were asked that question. Sixty percent of them got it wrong. Guys, it's a coin flip. If you did a coin flip, it would be 50%. So we know anyway, no one has all the answers, is what I'm saying. But good financial planner can give you the confidence that you can get everything set up to hopefully diversify your position, reduce risk. And the key is to be able to sleep at night. That's what I think. Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Yeah, set the plan up that's good for you in your own mental state and what you can handle. Yeah. Yeah. So emotionally, what you can emotionally handle is a lot often the case.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah. So you do a really good job of outlining the basics of that. With your group, though, to give listeners a little bit of color, what are some of the common, you know, after their husband died, what are some of the common financial surprises, pitfalls that you hear over and over again from whether cash flow is a big one.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Cash flow is a really big one. A lot of times, especially if someone's been a stay-at-home

Cash Flow Problems And Credit Card Access

SPEAKER_02 35:10

or, you know, non-working, non-working outside of the home mom, we all work like crazy in the home. There are oftentimes a mistake is made where because the husband's the moneymaker, the wife is the authorized user, or you know, doesn't have necessarily have access or have their own accounts of any kind. And that happens all the time where you're just strapped for cash. Because, like, for instance, my girlfriend, she's become one of those best friends I never knew I needed. I was actually friends with her husband. Oddly, our kids played lacrosse together, and he and I served on the board together. And and then when he passed away, she called the credit card company and said, Okay, my husband passed away. And literally, as she's talking, the credit cards, she got a text that said the card, all of her credit cards were canceled. And she was like, Did you just cancel my cards? And they said, Yes, you're not the owner. He is. And so she lost all access to her credit cards and she didn't really have any of her own. So, and then a lot of times, of course, you haven't been working, so you don't have the credit to get your own stuff. So that's a big one that we talk about a lot in our workshops is making sure that you have your own accounts. You, you know, each person has their own account. So if one, it doesn't matter if it's the man or the woman, you know, or same-sex couples, it's who it doesn't matter. The part each partner should have their should have their own accounts and be joint owners and make sure that you have access to that cash flow because that gets people into a lot of trouble debt-wise when they just don't have access to pay their bills until things go through probate. So that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Um, that was a whole lesson for me. I I went downstairs and told my husband this one immediately when I read this in your chapter. It was that I didn't know that being an authorized user is not like being a joint owner. So you need to be a joint owner. So here's my question if you you can just call up the credit card company if my husband has a card and put me on as an owner. I think so.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

We we talked about that at a workshop recently because there were so many differing, it depends on the credit card, I think. The bank. Okay. The issuing bank. So that's kind of the determination. We we've done a couple workshops with with a guy that we're we do some collab stuff who's an estate planning lawyer. Those are really great when we do those together because he answers all those questions because we're like and the rules are ever changing. But that's what it seems to be is it depends on the company. So yeah, but you know, if you don't if you can't do it, just make sure you have each up your own. Yeah. And John and I always did, oddly, I don't even know. It wasn't even intentional. Like we had he had his own checking in savings, I had my own checking in savings. Well, I had my own credit cards, he had his own credit cards, I was an authorized user on some of his cards, you know. So I didn't have that issue necessarily. But yeah, so those are just some of the things that I've heard. And it seems to be really just the cash flow. That's the big one. Because if things aren't set up properly, going into probate in Georgia, probate is pretty quick. It's not too troublesome, but in some states, it's really, really, really hard. And you can you can have stuff in probate for years and you don't have access to anything until everything's gone through. So that can really mess people up financially if they don't have access to the cash. So that's the that's the big, big, big one.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

And these are things that are really easy to deal with right now. I mean, I'm so proud of my estate organizer right now.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Should be.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

I think in total, in total, my total time over two days was two hours. Oh, wow. Yeah. I probably spent more than two hours transferring that single item to every new to-do list over the past five years. I mean, it's didn't take long.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Totally, like just moving it. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna mention this one because this one, every single workshop we do, people are like, what? And it's not necessarily a widow situation, but it is something to consider. Those you mentioned having old accounts, old investments, and so many of those that we start maybe when we're younger, or maybe people have gotten divorced and remarried, those beneficiaries. That's something you have to, have to, have to go look at all of your

Beneficiaries And The Letters Your Kids Need

SPEAKER_02 39:15

beneficiaries. And and Cameron does, he's he, what does he call it? He calls it like financial first aid. I think first aid, you you fire drill, you do it every three to five years, or anytime there's a life change. You know, you have a new child or change a job, anytime there's some life event, update it. But also if nothing has happened every three to five years, just do a check. Just do a little fire drill, check it all out because those beneficiaries, that's when people really get a little wake-up call too. So it happens most often if if there's a divorced situation where back then you have a, you know, maybe an old 401k or a Roth or something you've forgotten about, and your ex is on that as a beneficiary, they get that money. And people forget about those all the time. And and that is the number one thing that every single workshop we do. People gasp. They're like, oh, and then they're like, oh my God, I gotta go make sure that that guy's our girl isn't getting my money because there's nothing you can do about it. If they're listed as a beneficiary, that overrides everything, anything that's in your will and your trust and anything. So yeah, wow is the number one thing to do if you're if you're a divorced person for sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

And also, you know, if you open a checking account or you open up a CD or something like that, you always have to say beneficiary. And I can remember when we updated our will. We updated it last year, but we updated it, say, 10 years ago. And my husband had opened different CDs over the years, and our attorney kind of took a little inventory of things and he showed us a chart. My husband hadn't kept track, my husband doesn't listen to my podcast, so this is not gonna offend him. He didn't keep track of which kid he had said at which time. As it turned out, one kid had twice as much as the other kid. Well, that would have gone over really well.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Oh, that would have been bad.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Yeah, I was like, okay, because here's the other thing. I have two sons. We want to be so careful that we aren't creating conflict between the kids after we're gone. The other suggestions you had about, you know, we're talking about practical, tangible kind of financial things right now. But one of the things I so appreciated about your book and idea I never thought about was you're gonna have this estate organizer. And most likely one of your grown kids is gonna be dealing with it. And you suggested the idea of writing a letter to each kid, you know, and I thought, wow, wouldn't that have been great if going through my dad's stuff, I had found a letter from him, even if he had written it 20 years earlier.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

What a gift that would be.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

We're doing that.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

It's a great gift because you know, it is like words beyond the grave, but we encourage people to do it to explain why why you made the decisions you made, whether it's what you're gifting them as, you know, it's a piece of jewelry or family heirloom or or even how you set up the trust fund or the estate plan or however, any decisions you've made, it explains it to them to really decrease that infighting or hurt feelings as much as possible. Because greed makes people crazy. And we hear these stories all the time at workshops too, that they're just like the best of siblings, the best of families have really bad fighting that really doesn't ever go away anymore. You know, it creates such divide that if you just take that time to put that letter in there, not only is it a lovely little, you know, little love note beyond the grave, but it's an explanation. And it it keeps the assumptions or the, you know, you were the favorite or, you know, whatever. The he wasn't thinking clearly, or she would have wanted me to have this, you know, that keeps all of that. That's there's no arguing they're your very own words. So it just serves a lot of like it's a dual purpose. It's a dual purpose gift, you know, because that is a gift to to explain why you've done what you've done.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

So it is a gift. I've seen this happen, you know. I'm 62, so I've we've lost my husband and I have lost all of our parents, and I've seen my friends lose their parents. So we've all seen different family dynamics and how that plays out. And I'm in the camp of why wait until we die, sit down with your adult children now and tell them what the will is.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Yeah, that was the ideal.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Tell them what your intention is. My son has been married for three years. Last year I took his wife out to lunch. She is my daughter-in-law, she's now, you know, part of the picture, she's

Normalizing The Will Conversation

SPEAKER_00 43:54

part of the family. And I thought, I'm not gonna explain this to my son and have him explain it to her. Because something will be lost in the translation. Yeah. Because there's also when we when we set up, call it an estate plan, whatever, you know, there's emotion behind this. You're trying to think of how you can benefit future loved ones' lives who you haven't even met yet.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Right? Possibly. So I was able to sit across the table from her and tell her not just the nuts and bolts of it, but why it mattered. And you know, Pam was so neat. She sat back in her chair and her eyes filled with tears. And she said, I never thought of the emotion of this. She said, Now I get it. And my son, my son would not have been able to convey that.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

No, that's brilliant, actually. That's really brilliant. That's really brilliant. I didn't think about that. But you know, it's so crazy because people are so weird about death. And it's just something that happens to all of us. We will all experience so many times in our lives, and yet people are so uncomfortable with it. So you're right. Having that conversation while you're alive is ideal. That would really be so good. You know, that's another thing that we cover in our workshops all the time. We get, especially when we do workshops with younger people, like young adults. We do like young professionals. We get that question all the time. It's like, how do I have this conversation with my parents? Because every time I try to bring it up, they're like, why do you want to talk about what's in the will? You're just trying to see how much money you're going to get. You're trying to see, you know, it creates this kind of weird, defensive or almost antagonistic conversation where people are just weird. Like there's got to be a way to normalize the whole conversation, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

And I think that what you just described is exactly what I hear from my friends. I don't want to ask my dad what this will is because he's going to think I'm he might cut me out. There's three other kids, I'm the greedy one. And I can remember my sister and brother. I was with my dad, and they said, Hey, you're with dad. Do you know what the will is? No, I don't know what the will is. And he had my dad had been remarried a couple of times. So who knows what complicated things were. Stephanie, you want to ask dad about the will? And I'm probably the more forthright of the three of us in this area. So I'm like, sure, that'd be fun. So I'm sitting with my dad, and I said, Dad, none of us know what your will is. And he said, Oh, you want to see it? He goes upstairs, he comes down, and he explained it to me. And here's what I realized, Pam. When we ask our parents about their will, what we need to say up front is, I just want to make sure that we use this in the way that you want us to use it. I want to make sure that we honor your wishes, that we totally understand what you want us to do. Because then I'll say, because I saw my husband's family and all they did was fight. Dad, you've worked hard your whole life. You have saved all this money, and we want to make sure that we use it in a way that you would feel good about. And in talking to them about it, they all took a great amount of pride in kind of getting marching orders, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Like, yeah, this makes sense. And they felt good about, you know, they each had a very responsible plan for what they're gonna do with the money. And yeah, so it doesn't have to be anything manipulative or greedy. It's like, oh, my dad even said, now I'm talking too much. My dad at the time had a significant other. And he said, I just want to make sure she's taken care of. And I'm like, Dad, okay, guess what? You can give her anything you want to give her, but it needs to be in writing. Yes, you just can't leave this vague, make sure she's taken care of.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Yeah, that will create all kinds of problems. Yeah, so we ended up modifying the will.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

That's awesome. And he left her some generous stuff, and everyone felt good about it. Uh but no one felt like dad, we don't want to give her anything. We just wanted to make sure that we did what he would do. So anyway.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Oh, I love that. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

It's such a messy area, and anything we can do in advance is to make it easier.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Yeah. To make it easier and and just less stressful and yucky for the people left behind. I mean, really. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Because, like you said, grief is my gosh, years.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

Yeah. It's even when you're talking about like the celebration of life, like we didn't, I put that in the book. Like, I didn't write it down. I knew exactly what John wanted, but it's still called it caused infighting within his side of the family that, you know, there's still five years later, little residual feelings left behind because of that. You know, if he and I had taken the time to write it down, there would be no argument. There would be no, you know, it's not in a church, you know, it's not in a church. It doesn't feel like I have closure, you know. It it was what he wanted. He didn't go to church. So it was like seemed like a given, but yeah, it's so writing stuff down just saves so much headache later.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

And it doesn't have to be an official will, it can just be written down.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

We did that at the very end. John was Scottish, and so he had his whole kilt attire and his family crest and all that stuff. And it was like one of the last things we did. But I was like, oh my God, we need to, you know, if you want to have each kid have a piece, it will be meaningful to them. Each kid, he couldn't even write anymore. I had to write it for him. He couldn't even barely talk much at that point. But it took a while to like we'd do like one letter a day to each of the kids, like talking of it. It was like me just kind of coaxing information out of him. But it was really important. And when they got it, it was so meaningful to them to each each piece of his kilt that they got, or the ring, or whatever he they got there. It's very meaningful instead of being like, okay, who wants what? You know, versus I want you to have this because of this. I want, you know, you to have this because of this. We waited too long, but we got it done, you know, thankfully. But it was one of those things that we're like, oh, we should do this because that'll mean so much. So yeah, it's just all of it matters.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Okay, I'm gonna work on that. I'm gonna work on that. So, like I said, we've covered lots of stuff, but someone listening either is a widow or knows a widow. Yeah, and I've already shared your group with a good friend of mine who's a widow and she is happy about it. She's gonna hear this podcast, but I'm gonna put her in touch with you. How can I noticed on your website a couple of things, how to get involved locally if you're in the Atlanta area, but also you have a link that says start a chapter because people hear this across the country. What do you provide for people when you say start a chapter?

SPEAKER_02 51:39

So

How To Launch A Local Chapter

SPEAKER_02 51:40

I like I said, I've trademarked it. I have a full, it took me a long time. It took a long time to get all these pieces in place, but I wanted to do it with very intentionally and thoughtfulness. When you start a chapter with us, I'm your support, I'm your person. I will help launch. So we talk about how I launched, what what what steps to take. Actually, I have a call later today or tomorrow. Somebody, one of my widows here locally moved to Delray, Florida, and she wants to start one. And then we have someone in Louisville, somebody in North Carolina. Everybody's like on the cusp of launching. So we don't have another official one done yet, but we've gone through. So what I envision is I'm the person that will help you. Like I'm your coach almost to get these things launched. What we've done local, like here locally, is I've implemented also like sponsorship packets for companies who I want their trusted, reliable resources, people that partner with us to help fund what we're doing, you know. So sponsorship packets. So I've created a way with my lawyer to uh that each chapter head will essentially be like an independent contractor. They can choose to have a revenue stream come in if they want to make money doing this. Because I I have my it's set up as an LLC. It's not a it's not a nonprofit. I'm hoping to generate enough down the road that we can do that. But, or if you don't want to have an income stream, you you become a voluntary independent contractor. But I'm your I'm your coach, I'm your person that will help you, like show you how to reach out to people, show you the messaging, and because it's all trademarked, it's all branded, you know, so you don't have to figure out how to do any of that. So really it's sort of like the toolkit is in place for you know doing this. And and I have this great vision that I would love, like all my chapter leads, we go do retreats together, we go do this stuff, and we're responding and have, you know, like the leadership kind of style retreats too. So, you know, it'll be a work in progress as as I figure things out as we're going along, and obviously always open to ideas on how to do it better. But you know, there's such a need, there's such a need, and I'm so excited at the idea of just having widows who whine everywhere and having all these women that I've seen literally transform. Like I feel like they're like butterflies popping out of their cocoons and just flourishing. And I I just see, you know, half of that happen everywhere would just be like you said, the ripple effect. If you you go from having a widow who's, you know, living in her house, like sheltered and lonely and you know, not being super productive in society to like living her best life and getting back out there and volunteering or working or you know, traveling and just adding joy to the people around her and you know, having so much more to give. The ripple effect of 12 million women doing that? Are you kidding me? Think about that.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Wow, think about that, and that's why I love your hyperactivity because it is really your hyper focus, is what this needs. And I think anyone listening knows a loved one who might be suffering. So when I looked at your website, and it's all kinds of things, there's something for everyone. Widows who wine. I actually don't drink, I'd be a boring widow, but I love book club, you have service projects, hiking, so many different activities. You really don't have to be a drinker, it's just such an irresistible title.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

I love an alliteration.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Widows who wine is so great because no H. I mean, the whole thing, when I first heard the title, I was like, oh man, that is so good. Now they have a group called Women Who Wine, which is but widows who wine, I'm like, Pam. Now I'm like uh I love you know business starts or whatever kind of starts. Uh-huh. How brilliant that you're the first one who trademarked that because that is good. But what's neat is you're not doing it for hey, great. If someone can start a chapter and actually help support their family with it, that's fabulous. But you can see where Pam's heart is, and when you focus on the mission of something, it can naturally become successful in many ways. But I hope anyone listening to this, I'm gonna ask people to take action. One is I want you to buy Pam's book. If not for you, for someone else. It's available on Kindle, paperback, and hardback. I got it on Kindle because then it's always in my hand. Again, it's called Where's the Key to the Safe, How to Avoid Probate Pitfalls, and Maximize Family Finances. And then, secondly,

Book Workbook And Resources To Share

SPEAKER_00 56:10

if you're in the Atlanta area and you are a widow or you have a loved one who is, share this information. Share this podcast episode, share Pam's website. I'm gonna have all of the links in our show notes, but I think you can remember Widows Who Whine. That's an easy website to find. And then tune in to Pam's podcast because I hope you've gotten a flavor of it here. You'll definitely get a flavor in her book. She is sassy and fun, and her conversations are great. And her podcast is called The Lost Love Stories. And there's, you know, sometimes they're two hours because it's just a great conversation. You can tune in and out.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

So those aren't good widows. Those are like all my guests have lost someone, males, females, they're they've lost children, they've lost parents, but it's not there, there are tears there, but it's a place to like archive their love story. So again, it's storytelling, but also their journey back to joy. That's where we go with it.

unknown 57:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Their journey back to joy. I love that. I love that. Well, have I forgotten anything? You tell us.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

Oh my gosh. Well, if you're in the Atlanta area, or actually we travel, we've done this everywhere. You know, Cameron and I will go do workshops and and we don't charge for them. We just go and help people understand the importance of doing the work ahead of time. So you're not trying to do it when you're aggrieving. And with the book, we also have a workbook that accompanies that. And that's on Amazon as well, which I didn't, I forgot to tell you about until you were just saying that popped in my mind. But the the idea with that is it's great because it goes chapter by chapter and you kind of fill it out as you go, and then you can take it to your estate planning lawyer and be like, here, here's my here's what I need for my estate plan. And our like our estate planning lawyer that we work with, he was like, Oh my gosh, if every client just brought that to me, not only would they have a way better, more customized estate plan versus like a cookie cutter, but he's like, It makes my life so much easier. And you know, you don't you won't have to pay as much. I was gonna say it won't take him so much time to do it. I was gonna say fewer hours, yes. Yeah, you pay your I think that I think the workbook on Amazon is like, I don't know, $12.99 or something. So tiny little fraction of what you'd pay that estate planner, but it's meant to be a really just a really easy chapter by chapter and just fill it out as you go and you know, hand it over.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

That is a good gift for adult kids. Yeah, because young adults don't think they need this. Oh, yes, you do. Young adults need not only this, they need, you know, they might not even realize how much life insurance they need. Oh, I'm only 32. Well, do you have a dependent? Do you have a wife who isn't working?

SPEAKER_02 58:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Or do you have a wife who has a smaller income than you? I mean, there's a lot of things to consider.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

So so much. And we we go into disability, we go into car insurance, like how umbrella policies, how to make sure you're covered in all the best ways, so you're not left you know in a catastrophic situation and and getting yourself into financial debt because you just weren't covered properly.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

So, yeah, there's a lot in there. Okay, I'm getting the workbook. All right, and listeners, you're getting the workbook too. So, anyway, share this episode with a friend. Oh, Pam, you can find her on Instagram, a widowsu wine. And she has some great little reels. So, anyway, thank you so much. It's been great to spend time with you. Thank you for having me. And you're welcome. And I look forward to hearing what comes of it.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

Absolutely. Thank you so much. And and anybody can reach out. I can send you all my stuff because I'm everywhere on all the socials. And if you want to get it to the show notes. Okay, that's all gonna be on the show notes. Awesome. All right, great.